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-   -   Sightstone nerf (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3074729)

Mradr 02-02-2013 02:38 AM

Sightstone nerf
 
Quote:

Sightstone
These changes are to reduce the excessive amount of early vision teams can acquire with little cost. This should create more opportunities to gank and reward counter play, especially for junglers.
■ Recipe changed: Ruby Crystal + 475 gold = 950 gold (from 700).
■ Health increased to 180 from 100.
■ Gold reward for Sightstone wards increased to 25 from 10.

Ruby Sightstone
These changes are to reduce the excessive amount of early vision teams can acquire with little cost. This should create more opportunities to gank and reward counter play, especially for junglers.
■ Total cost increased to 1550 from 1300.
■ Health increased to 360 from 300.
■ Gold reward for Ruby Sightstone wards increased to 25 from 10.
I want to start out saying it's a nice change we can build into it now instead of banking 700 gold right off to get it...

As for the down side... I feel the cost is a bit much now. Yes it does make getting wards nicer, but offers little over time as the game goes on. By increasing the cost, you also make that window of time of it being usefull lower and lower as the number of wards it can hold less than what you would need to support your team by wardings for late game.

Aka, this means this item is now only good for mid game play and totally a fail to buy after a while. Instead, if we're going to increase it's cost.. can we also get a 3rd forum of it comming out soon, so we can have it for late game use also? One that uses the mana stone as well jumping the 3 wards to 4 wards instead with a bit of mana?

If nothing... I think a redesign should be taken in effect... one that builds sight stone up over the game instead of giving a huge plus at once...

Ter1 - 1 (2 charges)
Ter2 - 2 (4 charges)
Ter3 - 4 (6 charges)

Ter1: Recipe changed: Sight Stone = 500: 100 HP
Ter2: Recipe changed: Ter1 + Ruby Crystal + 125 gold = 1100: 300 HP
Ter3: Recipe changed: Ter2 + Sapphire Crystal + 125 gold = 1625: 400 HP 250 Mana

The idea here is you have to comment to getting it as ter 1 only gives you 1 ward with only 2 charges... the cost is like getting 6-7 wards... meaning no other champ should be getting it either other than support. Also, with it only being 1 ward with 2 charges... you wont have the vision of the 2 ward posting like the old sight stone. The good side here is that it has a some what early game (costing 500 instead of 700) without being too stronge and a not so over the top end game.

Side notes:
The reason this works is that that will be stuck on ter 1 for a while... with it only providing 1 ward.. they still will be gankable as the support just now used all their money on getting it (500 gold) with a prop stone for their GP 5.

After that they still will have to back and get a ruby crystal that will only provide the base 2 wards as we see now... but most people are already at level 6-10 by this time.. meaning laning phase is comming to a end soon or a dragon steal will happen. This leaves only 1 ward for use to "scout" where they are.

By the time they have the money for the last ter... team fights should already be happening. The support will have taken their "hit" from the increase cost of getting the sight stone (more upfront cost to getting the wards comapre to the current sightstone), so a increase in health and mana will kinda offset that with the ability to actully ward for late game.

for your math ppl out there...
500 - 700(old cost) = 200 saved...
475 - 200 = 275 + 125 = 400 more gold that they will have to make to get the same sight stone that we have now for ter 2 use, but comes with a ter scaling compare to their current setup for use for the whole game instead of a limited window that we have now.


Also, before anyone fights me on the cost... you have to remember what they want form their change:
My idea does this, but hopefully keeps the over all cost down/spread out a bit instead of having to shell out all at once for it, so supports can still get the item without fear of it setting them back as much.


TL
For more reading on my math here:


Lets look at some math here:
Most people will pull off at least 12 wards with their sightstone...
so old cost 700 / 12 = 58 per ward
and the new cost 950 / 12 = 79 per ward

Now... from this math... we can see that old sightstone was a bit OP in that the cost per ward was really cheep, and we can also see the new sightstone is only a few more coins... That's fine, but we also have to add the new cost of the down time for more wards till we can make up for the now increase cost of about 250.

So lets add in our GP 10 (masterys + runes + prop stone). Lets also add in our pasive gold gain of 16... so we're only making 26 every 10 seconds.

The time to just make that 250 is about ((250/26) n * 10) = 100 seconds or 1min and 40seconds...

Doesn't sound so bad...when said like this... but this is only half the math sadly... Now lets add in our time it took to also get the prop stone and then we'll look at the total time we were down in wards...

Not counting our starting items here... lets just get the prop stone as it's another 350 gold... We can't use the same math as above because that's using GP 10... we don't have it yet... we're going to have to cut 5 gold out of the math there. This comes out to ((350/21) n * 10) = 170 or about 3mins worth of down time...

Now lets add all the time up now... so we're talking about almost 5mins worth of down time we're stuck with that we will have to make up in wards... All wards last for about 3mins if they're not pick off (lets say at least 1 ward will be pick off in lane phase... lets also say at least 1 ward will be used in the bushes (so any starting wards will have already be 'used').... They also cost 75 each, so 5 / 3 is about 2 wards * 75 = 150 gold that we will be set back to get the new sightstone...

So lets add in the time it takes to also make that 150 gold back....

150 / 26 = 6 * 10 = so another 1 min...

As we can see.. we wont be getting the sightstone untill at least 8mins in to the game. The real cost also increase from 250 to actully 400 because of the added need for more wards to make up the cost differents....
From then on... each ward from the new sightstone is really:
1100/12 = 92 per ward. That's a really #$#^ big jump for getting a sightstone now >.>; Aka you are better off buying wards now instead of buying the sightstone... they really $#%@# it over now.


Lets also see how long it'll wake to put down wards to make up that cost...
950/75 = 13 wards that we have to place.. Each ward last up to 3 mins and only 2 of them can be placed. Considering you wont always place 2 wards down or they wont get pick off by the other support lets call it a 1.8 raito. (13 /1.8) * 3mins = about 21 mins + 8 mins of the time we already had to spend to get the item to be about 29 mins into the game before the item really pays it self off give or take 4-5 mins. Now... this number can be kinda of misleading. A large part of this is comming in the forum of a static ward.. meaning you placed them down to have sight on a location such as on dragon and barron. The only issue here is that some support will ward before going into a bush and reward after to make sure that still have sight on a location... We will not consider it because that means the support is leaving the team to 4 v 5 most of the fights as you have to "run" back to that location again to ward it.


Sources: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Gold


Why a faster aegies? Looks take a look at the math again here as well. First, I want to comment that the health the sighstone gives you isn't that good. Most of the math so far is been over the wards, so we can consider that the sightstine health is "free" if we're only looking at the ward part. Why does this matter? Lets take a look at some known facts:
Ruby Crystal is 475g or about 2.64 gold per health.
We also know going sightstone is going to cost us 92 gold for the first 12 wards for 180 ("free") health only for the support.

Seem kinda of selfish if the health is only for the support:) I mean... isn't the job of the support is to support their ADC?

With that in minde... Lets take a look at the items under aegies: The most in import part we're compareing here is life with our cheaper wards.

The item that shines is called Emblem of Valor: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Emblem_of_Valor
Quote:

Stats: +20 armor

Aura: Unique - Valor: Nearby allied champions gain +7 health regen per 5 seconds.

Within 3 mins... (or one ward cycle) you get 252g x2 worth of health. Even if you're ADC isnt there.. you are still getting the health. The fact it is an aura means it's being spread out to everyone. The over all cost of the item + 2 wards is 650 + 75x2 = 800 gold you save 150 gold... you gain almost 70-322(x2ppl here) more HP witch means you can trade shots in lane more.... sustain in longer... Less health pots your ADC has to buy (allow them to get items that they wouldn't get otherwise), and gives non healing support camps a heal that is automatic.

The sightstone took 21mins to pay it self off... lets look at Emblem of Valor health regen with in that same about of time... 21mins * 60 = 1260 seconds / 5 = 300 * 7 health regen = almost 2,100-10,500(x5) health for you and the whole team. That's A LOT of free health that is going to both you and your team!

By 21 mins... we're also talking about having Aegis of the Legion also... so that number we got is actully quite low. Not by a lot, but enough if you was to add it in. My point being... even if I don't add the health the sightstone proves... I can always use the money I "gain" from not getting it into a faster Aegis of the Legion that inreturn means I am getting way more health over all for the WHOLE team. Meaning we are usally winning team fights that result into more assist that also means more gold.

Lets also look at how much time it would take to make up the cost differents between getting a sightstone vs wards only...
The only issue here is that some people are going prop stone then sightstone, so keep in minde that the math shown here can be a bit off from other builds... It can also be side that this math can be wrong if you are a type of suppor that likes to ward strange areas and warp back a lot to leave your team in a lot of 4/5 fights....
Will update later... last updated 2/11/2013.

Leaf of the lake 02-02-2013 06:08 AM

I like this direction for the sightstone. +1

Záchary 02-02-2013 07:39 AM

+1 for this idea

foxfire100 02-02-2013 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mradr (Hozzászólás 34192018)
I want to start out saying it's a nice change we can build into it now instead of banking 700 gold right off to get it...

As for the down side... I feel the cost is a bit much now. Yes it does make getting wards nicer, but offers little over time as the game goes on. By increasing the cost, you also make that window of time of it being usefull lower and lower as the number of wards it can hold less than what you would need to support your team by wardings for late game.

Aka, this means this item is now only good for mid game play and totally a fail to buy after a while. Instead, if we're going to increase it's cost.. can we also get a 3rd forum of it comming out soon, so we can have it for late game use also? One that uses the mana stone as well jumping the 3 wards to 4 wards instead with a bit of mana?

If nothing... I think a redesign should be taken in effect... one that builds sight stone up over the game instead of giving a huge plus at once...

Ter1 - 1 (2 charges)
Ter2 - 2 (4 charges)
Ter3 - 4 (6 charges)

Ter1: Recipe changed: Sight Stone = 500: 100 HP
Ter2: Recipe changed: Ter1 + Ruby Crystal + 125 gold = 1100: 300 HP
Ter3: Recipe changed: Ter2 + Sapphire Crystal + 125 gold = 1625: 400 HP 250 Mana

The idea here is you have to comment to getting it as ter 1 only gives you 1 ward with only 2 charges... the cost is like getting 6-7 wards... meaning no other champ should be getting it either other than support. Also, with it only being 1 ward with 2 charges... you wont have the vision of the 2 ward posting like the old sight stone. The good side here is that it has a some what early game (costing 500 instead of 700) without being too stronge and a not so over the top end game.

Side notes:
The reason this works is that that will be stuck on ter 1 for a while... with it only providing 1 ward.. they still will be gankable as the support just now used all their money on getting it (500 gold) with a prop stone for their GP 5.

After that they still will have to back and get a ruby crystal that will only provide the base 2 wards as we see now... but most people are already at level 6-10 by this time.. meaning laning phase is comming to a end soon or a dragon steal will happen. This leaves only 1 ward for use to "scout" where they are.

By the time they have the money for the last ter... team fights should already be happening. The support will have taken their "hit" from the increase cost of getting the sight stone (more upfront cost to getting the wards comapre to the current sightstone), so a increase in health and mana will kinda offset that with the ability to actully ward for late game.

for your math ppl out there...
500 - 700(old cost) = 200 saved...
475 - 200 = 275 + 125 = 400 more gold that they will have to make to get the same sight stone that we have now for ter 2 use, but comes with a ter scaling compare to their current setup for use for the whole game instead of a limited window that we have now.


Also, before anyone fights me on the cost... you have to remember what they want form their change:
My idea does this, but hopefully keeps the over all cost down/spread out a bit instead of having to shell out all at once for it, so supports can still get the item without fear of it setting them back as much.

I like the idea and grant a +1, but also posit a single change:

Tier 2 should be built from the sapphire crystal, tier 3 should be built from the ruby crystal.

I recommend this for two reasons. First, early game health is far superior to armor or magic resist for making a champion tankier. At level 1 when people are only doing 50 damage with their auto-attacks and you only have 450 health a ruby crystal lets you survive 2-3 additional attacks whereas cloth armor only lets you survive 1 additional attack. Therefore getting the early ruby crystal makes supports quite tanky. Replacing it with a sapphire crystal forces them to actually use their wards, pay attention, and escape from ganks before they start.

Second, supports tend to have more mana issues than health issues early game. I often find myself going bottom with a faerie charm, 3 wards, and 2 mana potions instead of health potions.

By swapping the tiers you give supports a much-needed mid-game boost to survivability without making them too tanky early-game.

Nexttoradio 02-02-2013 08:32 AM

I like how this works though I would suggest maybe a lisghtly different approach to tier 1. Instead of limiting its charges, why not make it place down explorer's wards instead? Or 2-minute wards? Still 4 charges, max out at any time 2.

Another option (that I personally like) would be to also make a "budget oracle's". Either oracle's extract or maybe a 3-minute CD item that grants 30 seconds of true sight or something. It could build out of Hunter's Machete.

I only suggest this because I feel that even these changes would keep mid-game warding far too easy to do with very little cost-effective counterplay available.

Mradr 02-02-2013 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexttoradio (Hozzászólás 34197781)
I like how this works though I would suggest maybe a lisghtly different approach to tier 1. Instead of limiting its charges, why not make it place down explorer's wards instead? Or 2-minute wards? Still 4 charges, max out at any time 2.

Another option (that I personally like) would be to also make a "budget oracle's". Either oracle's extract or maybe a 3-minute CD item that grants 30 seconds of true sight or something. It could build out of Hunter's Machete.

I only suggest this because I feel that even these changes would keep mid-game warding far too easy to do with very little cost-effective counterplay available.

Doing your other approach would feel confusing to both new players and even current... better off staying with the basic... other than to maybe make all wards comming from the sightstone to be explore wards... but then I would feel like that be a BIG nerf to the sightstone.

As for the oracles... I feel like it's in the right direction... maybe make the cost of the item 100 less, but it needed a CD other wise... if your team gets a head at any point.. you won warding wars as you can just have it up all the time making it impossable for the other team to ward.

For a item to have it... idk... I like the idea as long as it's follow up with some cost behinde it (means I don't want jungler and support to be able to make one). so +1 if you can maybe design one... Also, it would have to have a 5min cool down other wise it would be kinda of over powered at 3mins (remember, they have mastery now that takes away 15% of a item time CD). + you have to count in cycle times... 3 mins would mean they would be able to hit all the wards per cycle.

Elphrihaim 02-02-2013 07:35 PM

*highly supports cheaper early-sightstone with weaker base but upgrades more steadily*

Here was what I was thinking on the subject; actually:

Sightstone: 475g [colored white]
+100 Health
Ward Refresh: Can store up to 2 wards.
Ghost Ward: Can place up to 1 ward.

Ruby Sightstone: Sightstone[475g] + Ruby Crystal [475g] + Recipe [350] = 1300 [colored red]
+320 Health
Ward Refresh: Can store up to 4 wards.
Ghost Ward: Can have up to 2 wards.

Alchemist's Sightstone: Ruby Sightstone [1300] + Philospher's Stone [700g] + Recipe [1000g] = 3000g [colored violet, also glowing]
+350 Health
+10 Health Regen per 5 seconds
+10 Mana Regen per 5 seconds
Transmute: +5 gold per 10 seconds.
Ward Refresh: Can store up to 8 wards.
Ghost Ward: Can have up to 4 wards.

Mradr 02-03-2013 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphrihaim (Hozzászólás 34220384)
*highly supports cheaper early-sightstone with weaker base but upgrades more steadily*

Here was what I was thinking on the subject; actually:

Sightstone: 475g [colored white]
+100 Health
Ward Refresh: Can store up to 2 wards.
Ghost Ward: Can place up to 1 ward.

Ruby Sightstone: Sightstone[475g] + Ruby Crystal [475g] + Recipe [350] = 1300 [colored red]
+320 Health
Ward Refresh: Can store up to 4 wards.
Ghost Ward: Can have up to 2 wards.

Alchemist's Sightstone: Ruby Sightstone [1300] + Philospher's Stone [700g] + Recipe [1000g] = 3000g [colored violet, also glowing]
+350 Health
+10 Health Regen per 5 seconds
+10 Mana Regen per 5 seconds
Transmute: +5 gold per 10 seconds.
Ward Refresh: Can store up to 8 wards.
Ghost Ward: Can have up to 4 wards.

I kinda of had the same idea as your last ter once... but then I figure it would be some what silly over all:

Shurelya's Reverie cost is 2100... going for more wards in that route would effect the ability to get it in the long run. Guess it could be considerd a trade off.

Also... the cost is just way too high... Take your ter 2 cost / 12 for about 108 per ward.

Another thing, some tops go Philospher's Stone... what would stop them from just getting the same stuff? Lots of health and free wards?

Then finally you have to take in that it will leave you with more spaces for another item (witch I kinda of figure is the reason they didn't go this route).

Mradr 02-03-2013 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glugthefirst (Hozzászólás 34248618)
When i heard the news I initially thought it was a bad move, however when I tried it out it still seems worth buying say, after I buy a phil stone. You get slightly more health with it also, and thats not really a bad thing.


You loss your opening with sightstone tho by increasing the cost...... check out the other post to understand why... I gave different out comes to understand this...

To sum up tho: Because the sightstone cost increase, it means you have ot get it later (what they're hopeing for), but while increasing the cost seem like the right thing... it's not because that's also downtime you have to get more wards for... meaning the cost to ward for the sightstone never comes out even enough for the item... You are really better off just buying more wards at this point.

Lets look at some math here:
Most people will pull off at least 12 wards with their sightstone...
so old cost 700 / 12 = 58 per ward
and the new cost 950 / 12 = 79 per ward

Now... from this math... we can see that old sightstone was a bit OP in that the cost per ward was really cheep, and we can also see the new sightstone is only a few more coins... That's fine, but we also have to add the new cost of the down time for more wards till we can make up for the now increase cost of about 250.

So lets add in our GP 10 (masterys + runes + prop stone). Lets also add in our pasive gold gain of 16... so we're only making 26 every 10 seconds.

The time to just make that 250 is about ((250/26) n * 10) = 100 seconds or 1min and 40seconds...

Doesn't sound so bad...when said like this... but this is only half the math sadly... Now lets add in our time it took to also get the prop stone and then we'll look at the total time we were down in wards...

Not counting our starting items here... lets just get the prop stone as it's another 350 gold... We can't use the same math as above because that's using GP 10... we don't have it yet... we're going to have to cut 5 gold out of the math there. This comes out to ((350/21) n * 10) = 170 or about 3mins worth of down time...

Now lets add all the time up now... so we're talking about almost 5mins worth of down time we're stuck with that we will have to make up in wards... All wards last for about 3mins if they're not pick off (lets say at least 1 ward will be pick off in lane phase... lets also say at least 1 ward will be used in the bushes (so any starting wards will have already be 'used').... They also cost 75 each, so 5 / 3 is about 2 wards * 75 = 150 gold that we will be set back to get the new sightstone...

So lets add in the time it takes to also make that 150 gold back....

150 / 26 = 6 * 10 = so another 1 min...

As we can see.. we wont be getting the sightstone untill at least 8mins in to the game. The real cost also increase from 250 to actully 400 because of the added need for more wards to make up the cost differents....
From then on... each ward from the new sightstone is really:
1100/12 = 92 per ward. That's a really #$#^ big jump for getting a sightstone now >.>; Aka you are better off buying wards now instead of buying the sightstone... they really $#%@# it over now.


Sources: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Gold

psychovixen2110 02-03-2013 08:05 PM

i think this is a good idea that should be taken into account, to my sightstones aren't all that worth it, you should get more imo


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