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-   -   Can atk speed slows caused by items be countered? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3043214)

Fourt3hLuls 01-25-2013 07:23 AM

Can atk speed slows caused by items be countered?
 
Hi, im a veteran nocturne player, i love topping with him, but the main issue i seem to run into is anytime theres more than 2 ADC's on my team the opposing team all build Randuins or Thornmail, the passive slow on nocs atk speed is ridiculous because tenacity (to my knourwlege) doesnt do anything against the slows caused by cold steel (basically on hit cold steel is applied tenacity reduces the duration then its simply reapplied as soon as duration ends because your still atking).

The only counter i can really seem to think of is to run cleanse? Screwing out the fact that i need both flash and ignite as a top lane melee champ im not even sure cleanse would remove debuffs from items...

Is there an answer here that im just not seeing? Because i dont see a reason for a cap on max atk speed if anyone can buy randuins or thornmail and essentially shutdown melee ADC's that rely on their basic atks.


Suggested solution:
Make an item that grants atk speed while lowering/removing debuffs on atk speed for MELEE CHAMPS ONLY. or remove max atk speed cap (again for melee champs only) this would greatly help to increase the viability of melee champs in PvP.

Master yi would be the only melee exception, if max atk speed were to be removed for melee champs his should stay capped because it would be ridiculous if it wasnt


Edit
Ok, im all for the cold stell passive only applying to ranged champions, it makes it so tanks and melees can get in range without getting destroyed. The only issues i have with cold steel arise from the massive weight it puts on melees who rely on their basic attacks to deal damage, there is no way to counter these slows, and melee champs are struggling to stay viable nowdays anyways because BORK is essentially a waste and there is no madreds anymore. (incidentidly i would like to see a melee only madreds item, but maybe thats just me)

Quadradactyl 01-25-2013 07:31 AM

You couldn't remove the ASPD cap for some and not for others.

Also Tenacity lowers the duration of CC. So how long it effects how not how much. But that is how you shut down a champ like that. Also as a top laner I run Flash and Teleport.

Unique – Tenacity: The duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds and immobilizes are reduced by 35%.Unique – Tenacity: The duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds and immobilizes are reduced by 35%.

The Tenacity item effect will reduce the duration of crowd control effects. The reduction from the Tenacity on items does not stack with itself, but it will stack multiplicatively with other types of CC duration reduction from the champion abilities.


ASPD slows are included in the "Slows" mention of Tenactiy


Source:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...ntrol#Tenacity

Fourt3hLuls 01-25-2013 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VyletRaccoon (Hozzászólás 33881140)
You couldn't remove the ASPD cap for some and not for others.

Also Tenacity lowers the duration of CC. So how long it effects how not how much. But that is how you shut down a champ like that. Also as a top laner I run Flash and Teleport.

Unique – Tenacity: The duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds and immobilizes are reduced by 35%.Unique – Tenacity: The duration of stuns, slows, taunts, fears, silences, blinds and immobilizes are reduced by 35%.

The Tenacity item effect will reduce the duration of crowd control effects. The reduction from the Tenacity on items does not stack with itself, but it will stack multiplicatively with other types of CC duration reduction from the champion abilities.


ASPD slows are included in the "Slows" mention of Tenactiy


Source:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wik...ntrol#Tenacity

The only reason i mention excluding Yi is because he would be pretty ridiculously OP with no max ATK speed. Also i dont think its broken vs ranged champs, i believe that items like randuins and thornmail should be an answer to champs like draven cait varus etc, their just way too effective vs melee (and melee champs are already at a big enough disadvantage as it is)

Ok, so tenactiy does decrease the duration of the atk and move speed slow, but whats the point if its just re applied after the next basic atk? In all honesty (if im understanding this correctly) tenacity doesnt do JACK against cold steel...

TealNinje 01-25-2013 09:44 AM

That's what the purpose of Randuin's Omen is. To counter autoattacking champions.

ROOOOOAST 01-25-2013 10:10 AM

You say : remove AS cap, but complain about getting your AS reduce by 20% ???

In the math equation of your total AS, 20% isnt that much, because it is 20% OF YOUR BASE ATTACK SPEED. So if you got item/mastery that gives you 120% AS, and your base AS is 0,5 (round number) your attack speed is : 1,1 attack per second. And of some one had a randuin, your attack speed would be : 1,0 attack per second.
Whatever item/runes/mastery, if your base attack speed is 0,5, attacking a unit with a randuin will reduce your attack speed by 0,1. Significant if your not adc (and got lower than 0,9-0,8 AS) but if your going full dps mode nocturne, and finish your build with a lot of attack speed, it wont matter as much.

Yes it counter a bit, but doesnt counter much.

3mptylord 01-25-2013 10:36 AM

Attack speed reduction is not a form of crowd control. However, it is often "bundled" with movement speed slows and is tied to the same duration - so if you reduce the movement speed slow duration, you will also reduce the attack speed slow duration. "Slow Resist" on Swiftness and the mastery won't affect it, though.

Attack speed slows that are not connected to a movement speed slow can only be removed with Quicksilver. Oddly, Barrel Roll and Ground Slam are the only attack speed slows that aren't connected to a movement speed slow - so these are the only attack speed slows that crowd control reduction, remove scurvy, cleanse, etc, will have no effect on.

Kholdstare13 01-25-2013 11:29 AM

You rangecist.

Dark Kuno 01-25-2013 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TealNinje (Hozzászólás 33884235)
That's what the purpose of Randuin's Omen is. To counter autoattacking champions.

And Frozen Heart

TealNinje 01-25-2013 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROOOOOAST (Hozzászólás 33884931)
You say : remove AS cap, but complain about getting your AS reduce by 20% ???

In the math equation of your total AS, 20% isnt that much, because it is 20% OF YOUR BASE ATTACK SPEED. So if you got item/mastery that gives you 120% AS, and your base AS is 0,5 (round number) your attack speed is : 1,1 attack per second. And of some one had a randuin, your attack speed would be : 1,0 attack per second.
Whatever item/runes/mastery, if your base attack speed is 0,5, attacking a unit with a randuin will reduce your attack speed by 0,1. Significant if your not adc (and got lower than 0,9-0,8 AS) but if your going full dps mode nocturne, and finish your build with a lot of attack speed, it wont matter as much.

Yes it counter a bit, but doesnt counter much.

Why is it that people whose name involved the letters "roa" don't actually know anything?

The reason Randuin's Omen, Frozen Heart, Malphite's E, Nasus's W, Gragas's Q, etc. etc. etc. are so powerful is because they calculate based on the total attack speed, not the base. It is the opposite of attack speed increases.

Fourt3hLuls 01-25-2013 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TealNinje (Hozzászólás 33884235)
That's what the purpose of Randuin's Omen is. To counter autoattacking champions.

Then they need to re purpose cold steel, the main goal of passives like cold steel shouldnt be to shutdown ever melee based champ without fail (melee based champs are struggling to remain viable as it is without cold steel), the purpose of cold steel should be to allow tanks and melees a chance to get close to range champs that build AS and crit (Cait, Varus, Draven, etc)


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