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-   -   Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3013310)

BestBilbo 01-17-2013 01:52 PM

Are Champions As Awesome As They Could Be? @Morello @Feralpony @IronStylus @Xypherous
 
Please read the thread before posting, otherwise feel free to ignore.

Oh lord, an IronStylus comment concerning our threads !
Quote:

Originally Posted by IronStylus (Hozzászólás 33489197)
Actually I totally read through it. It's super interesting and.. man.. I'd love to throw a well written thesis of a post in there but I don't know if I can find the time. Alls I can say is that you're doing some really interesting stuff. I certainly did look at the suggested changes you prescribed for Diana and Leona. Some good stuff there.

I'm not a designer, but it's something I might be able to point the designers to at some point just for the heck of it. There's reasons also that I'd maybe argue against some of the things you recommend in terms of cohesion, but again, that'd be a really ridiculously long post. I like what you're doing, so in case I don't make it in there, know that I think the analysis is very impressive and the solutions are creative!

Source: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...89197#33489197 - thank you IronStylus!




Hello GD !

I'm Bestbilbo (aka Perifear), I've been working with 'ItemsGuy' for a month now.
ItemsGuy is going for an MFA in Interactive Design/Game Development at the Savannah College of Art and Design, he has taken multiple courses regarding character design in video games aswell.

You might know us from a couple of threads concerning the current champion-design model - in these four weeks we've got over 23k + hits in views and ~150 upvotes.

The upvotes are pretty low in comparison with the amount of hits, probably because the threads are fairly large - therefore this thread.
We've critically observed stuff and gave our opinion - interestingly enough, there have been strong signs of Riot indirectly agree'ing with us, therefore a red could desperately help us out.

This thread will be a summary with less detailed explanation - a lot of stuff is hotlinked with sources and links to our original OP's.

We ask and encourage you to read all of the links we provide here if you feel this thread doesn't provide enough explanation - if you still have questions after reading the links (including our FAQ), feel to throw anything at us - there's always a reason why we do or don't do something.




I - IMPORTANCE OF THEMING

In our third thread we've discussed why consistant theming is very important to a character. Here are the bullet points:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
Here a quick quote from Jesse Schell, game designer and author of 'The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses.'

'We can create games with powerful themes right now. But why should we do this? We aren't artists, we are designers.
Artistic expression is not our goal. Our goal is to create powerful experiences.
It is possible to create games without a theme, however if games have unifying, resonant themes, the experiences we create will be much, much stronger.'

Mr. Schell is talking entire games, though it's still very applicable when it comes to designing characters (after all, choosing a champ is like a small game - you are simply choosing the experience you wish to have within a League match)

The stronger and more unified a champion's theme, the more fulfilling playing that champion would be--even without the competitive context of LoL; making enjoying a champion less of "If I pick this champion I'm going to win and I like winning" and more like "I really enjoy playing this champion!"--taking the joy of "winning" out of the mix to expose the true value of a champion.

We feel alot of champions could have a way stronger theme. Making a champion that reflects theme in terms of artwork, visual appearance and abilities/playstyle makes the champion more unique and more interesting to play.

Examples of champions that barely reflect theme:

-Sion, the Undead Champion. He doesn't really feel like the ultimate undead warrior - he rather feels like a mage that does random stuff, he doesn't really have an unified Undead Warrior playstyle.

Click here for a thread concerning Sion's theme, even has some Riot replies, more or less agree'ing with the OP - we aren't the authors of that thread.

-Leblanc, the Deciever.

Ask yourself - is she more known for her Q + R combo or is she known for being the ultimate deciever, someone that tricks you and acts with the art of surprise ?
Exactly - her Q + R combo, hence the well-known QQ such as 'omg wtf noob champ Q + R burst damage no skill' and so forth.

In our opinion, pretty sad for a champion to be known for a straightforward spellcombo instead of being known as the ultimate deciever (better themed and interesting playstyle) that she could have been. *Sigh*- the Monkey King makes more decieving plays and he's a freakin' monkey, not 'the Deciever'.







II - VARIETY

A lot of champions in League work very similar, Riot keeps on designing champions very similar to eachother, a lot of them feel generic while all these champions could have better theming creating a more unified character with a more unique playstyle, creating more variety among champions, probably making champions feel less generic, less stale and more fun.

Please hear us out. Let me take you back to a quote of Morello:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan 'Morello' Scot - Lead Champion Designer
But what we really want to do - is create a good variety of champions, so that every player has a few to several champions that they are absolutely stoked about - instead of having like a whole slew of champions that people are not interested in and don't really buy into.

Cool Morello - let's talk variety.

For example, Heimerdinger:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
Heimerdinger is mostly known for his turrets; they're very iconic to him as a character. (a smart little inventor dude that makes gadgets). However - after his turrets 'it all goes wrong'.

You can assume Heimer made his grenades and rockets - but they're pretty much just 'generic mage spells' with rocket and grenade skins. The fact that they both outclass his turrets - his most iconic ability - doesn't help his gameplay experience.

Heimerdinger feels less like a "Revered Inventor," and more like an engineer that wants to be a mage.

Not only does it show that he gets outclassed by just about every other mage out there in terms of burst damage, AoE damage, crowd control - the one thing that's characteristically Heimerdinger is left in the dust because it doesn't fit on the standard mage kit.'

We're aware of the Heimerdinger rework - he's having buffs/changes to his current kit, while this is a direct buff to him and will maybe make him viable again - what does it do for our little inventor buddy as a champion?

It seems Riot wants him to be more powerful in the same way every other mage is, instead of using the rework as an opportunity to fix him from the ground-up and make him a champion all his own.
This can't really be done with his current kit as it is, as long as he has two "general mage" abilities, they will always leave his turrets in the dust because he's more of a mage than an inventor.

On top of that, having the fortification of his turrets as well as the ability to poke like a mage, is an imbalance in design, not just through numbers. (Hello broken OP release Heimerdinger working like a mage but having his turrets along with that).
Making him rely on his inventions and playing more defensively would give him defined strengths and weaknesses that are both clear as day and thematically tied to his appearance and character, so that he is both satisfying to play and satisfying to counterplay.

Heimerdinger could and in our opinion should be more of an inventor; something like a new resource system as passive where minions drop scrap, heimerdinger picks them up by walking over the scrap. Like this the Inventor actually gets to invent his own sh*t.

Don't get us wrong - there ARE a bunch of very good champions aswell (will mention more below), but for example Thresh !

-Thresh (Thanks CertainlyT ! Well-Themed: Check. Themed-Playstyle: Check (all his abilities/kit revolves around being a jailer, jailer-playstyle), Read-Ability: Check. (Iconic grab that is very characteristic. Ult is very obvious and makes sense with his theme. W and E are extremely readable: you only need to see a Tresh do them once and you get it).









III - PLAYSTYLE & COUNTERPLAY:

How is a playstyle defined ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItemsGuy
The value of a playstyle can be measured by how much the player is encouraged to think like the character they’re playing through coherency within the kit as well as its thematic unity and how distinct that method of thought is - because the more distinct it is, the more room it creates for counterplay.

We're not just about creating a more dynamic game (creating more flavors of the same role), but about enriching the player's experience. In our opinion - playing a champion shouldn't simply be having access to 5 (or 9) abilities for 20-50 minutes, it should be stepping into a champion's shoes and romping around for a while
.
The more distinctive a playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it.

Darius is a very good example of this - Darius has a very distinctive playstyle, he has very defined strength and weaknesses. CertainlyT, the designer of Darius:

'What changes you might make on Darius in the future?' - someone asked CertainlyT

Quote:

Originally Posted by CertainlyT (Hozzászólás 32987239)
It's unclear what should be done to Darius. He's balanced, has clear strengths and weaknesses, and is much less matchup dependent than the average forum post would have you believe. Even if we remedied some of the specific complaints about him now, any bruiser that does not lean heavily on raw statistical bonuses to be successful will often generate a lot of frustration from their opponents. Raw stats tend to play out almost unnoticeably over time whereas abilities manifest their power in dramatically noticeable moments. Take Jarvan's Demacian Standard -- it's primary power is in the armor/AS boost it gives, but a good number of players don't even notice it exists.

I would say that, in the case of changing Darius' bleed damage to physical, be careful what you wish for, you might not like it.

Click here for a the source/full thread - they can't nerf Darius or he'll really be underpowered.

Click here for 'I think I finally understand Darius' - a thread having 300+ upvotes of how Darius works and is not OP.

A champion that excells at alot of things, not really having specific strengths and weaknesses (hello 'release Jayce' syndrome) tends to be more imbalanced; very frustrating to play or very frustrating to play against (the champion provides less options of counterplay).


EDIT: Click here for a thread called 'Morello, IF you had the change to redesign Darius, what would you do ?'

Yet again - the more distinctive a playstyle is, the more counterplay there is to it. Morello seems to have got it, he lays even more emphasis on the fact/playstyle of Darius: 'The longer he is close, the more he'll be able to wreck balls' - I've shown this to ItemsGuy and he liked it. It makes Darius more readable (more understandable), less frustrating and pushes his theme: This guy will hack and slash if you're near and will do a devastating blow if you stook around for too long - like an executioner having to chop more than once - then one last time to finally chop the head off.







IV - DEPTH

Besides all of this - champions working in a kinda generic way and having weird theming- a lot of champions (especially the older ones such as Annie and Fiddlesticks) have very little depth, they have a very limited skillcap. These champions do the same thing over and over and over again - they tend to be very repetitive.

Most importantly; these champions tends to get boring for a lot of people pretty fast.

For example Fiddlesticks. The depth of his kit is fairly low; R in teamfight -> (optional: Zyhonas) -> E, followed by Q and W. This is the same thing over and over again, there aren't alot of approaches when using his kit - only in terms of positioning (how or where do I ult in and so forth - from what angle ?) but positioning are general mechanics, every champion/player has to take this into account.

Do you have to use your abilities in a smart way ? Sure. Is it very repetitive ? Entirely, wich is our point.

Interestingly enough, Morello has indirectly agreed with us (he posted this quite some time ago):
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morello (Hozzászólás 29466681)
I'd also like to do some changes on existing champions to bring this out, though everyone will get mad when I do :P

Source: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...66681#29466681

Why did I bold that last part ? I'll get to that soon enough.







V - READABILITY/LOGIC

You can help (new) players by making champions as readable as possible, if you can - you should do this.
Burden of Knowledge is the homework you give to players (the things they must know) before they can actually enjoy themselves/play the game. Obviously, you can't get rid of this problem entirely, but you can help A LOT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perifear
While League has very clear visuals (=clarity), alot of stuff doens't make sense.

Rammus: Looking at his splash art and visual appearance (in-game model), you immediately will memorize/get and know this guy will be rolling & bumping into people. It also makes sense for him to redirect damage (W), he crawls up in his shell !

Not only enhances this the player's experience as it's very characteristic and cool in terms of theming, it also helps the readability of Rammus.. until.. E: Taunt for the sake of a taunt, he basically walks up to someone - 'touches them ?' - and then you should assume this Armordillo CC's you for X seconds ? Not very readable.
Is it good for his 'tank' role? Sure, but it's not done in a way that's readable or even a little relevant to his character, theming, or kit - just the role Riot decided he should fill.
Ult: Rammus randomly walks while the earth is shaking/crumbling around him - like nothing is really happening. We don't know why, what or how Rammus is doing this.
That's Burden of Knowledge, players are forced to learn that Rammus does this just because he does it.

Mordekaiser ? Same thing. You look at his splash art; huge guy with bulky armour with spikes everywhere and a giant mace, you think he'll crush you with that mace ! In the end he's more of a mage, having ranged abilities and making ghosts out of his corpses - like seriously ?
Funny enough, we've mentioned Mordekaiser as such an example before IronStylus did in the exact same way in this thread.

Now sometimes it's just abilities, not entire champions, good example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perifear
Trundle.. His entire kit is extremely readable, you get he bites you with his Q and does more damage, you see the ground turning filthy (W), you see the obvious pillar, blocking and slowing you (E), but what about his ultimate; spawns a filthy cloud around the target. What can people expect ? This ability is a perfect example that really requires reading the tooltip of Trundle's ultimate for a player to understand what's happening - now that's more-okay for the player playing Trundle, but this is anti-fun and Burden of Knowledge for the players playing against Trundle. Burden of knowledge is giving the player(s) homework before they understand what's happening - the work they are required to do before they can enjoy themselves.
A few examples of extremely readable, unified characters:

-Shaco (Tricky Assasin Jester, all of what he does is very iconic, specific, appropriate and memorable).
-Nautilus (Hooray Xyph ! : ) - this guy totally does everything a dude from the deep sea is expected to do.
-Vayne (Very typical and appropriate, you could argue about Silverbolts but it's very readable; everytime people get that 3rd proc/autoattack they SEE it has a bonus effect on them, quickly translating to '3 of these rings will screw me over - let's try to not collect these rings on me !)
-Vi, all about punching people.







-Acknowledging the Problem-

Quote:

Originally posted by ItemsGuy
League of Legends faces a problem that is called oversaturation.
One of the greatest attractions of the game for old and new players is the constant development of shiny and exciting new champions. Considering LoL’s current 100+ champion roster, this can't go on forever.
Champion production will eventually have to stop. When this happens, this will probably reduce the playerbase by tons.
The lack of a promising, new champion around every turn will cause player attention to collectively turn back towards the champions they currently have in front of them, and without the constant distraction of the carrot on the stick, the playerbase will probably become restless.
The current “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” complacency will grow into a jarring awareness of the fact that very few champions are as good as they could be.

Long story short: Champion production will have to stop at some point - in order to preserve League of Legends’s accessibility and structural integrity, though we're afraid people will get bored and stop playing League once it has stopped. I know I wouldn't play this game if I knew there would be no more content coming.



-Solution-
The past few months ItemsGuy has been working on possible Redesigns for League of Legends. Though:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morello (Hozzászólás 29466681)
I'd also like to do some changes on existing champions to bring this out, though everyone will get mad when I do :P

Agreed. People would get mad if you rework older champions as they would most likely not feel the same.
Considering the nature of these solutions, they would have to take place outside of League of Legends - as they involve changes so great that they would more than likely create a great upset within the playerbase should they happen to the game that players are familiar with—like renovating a house while a family is still living in it.

Checkout the 'Quick Overview' below for a more clear explanation, it's the summary of this summary thread. Summary-ception !






QUICK OVERVIEW

By now you should get all of this:

-Champion production must stop at some time, if they continue it gets too much: Burden of Knowledge, game gets way too complicated, oversaturation. Keep on producing isn't a solution, yet we think people would get bored if they do stop due to the staleness and 'genericness' of champions.
No matter how you put it - League will die to either 'boredom' or 'oversaturation'. (IMO, this happend to DotA2; things look less readable, a lot of abilities are random, there is way too much that they shove on people's plate before you can enjoy DotA, too much Burden of Knowledge).

Theming is very important - and can enlarge the lifespan of League by tons:

-Living up to theme to the fullest creates a very defined, unique character (Enriching the player's experience, 'boredom' fixed by tons). Thus creating more variety among champions.
-Living up to the to the fullest helps readability of a character, as everything makes sense, therefore is more logical and more memorable. (Burden of Knowledge, oversaturation fixed by tons)

-Reworking older champions would probably make the current playerbase mad, therefore the changes we ask for would be better fitting for a sequel. Players that wouldn't like the game that we will call 'Leauge of Legends 2' for now - will always have the option to play League as it currently is. Everybody gets happy ?






ItemsGuy's 'SOLUTION + THOUGHT PROCESS

The past few months ItemsGuy has been working on Redesigns for a game we will call 'LoL 2' for now.
What ItemsGuy has tried to do with all of these Redesigns individually:

Quote:

-Theming, more defined theming in terms of kit and playstyle. (Similar like Thresh has 'Jailer' abilities that converts to a 'Jailer'-playstyle).

-More counterplay. Counterplay is a must yet this has worked in our favor; the more defined a theme is the more counterplay there is to it.

ItemsGuy has kind of a hatred for abilities that can totally screw you over without counterplay; if you are in range you'll eat the ability, such as Taric stun and Pantheon spears. (Riot shares this opinion with him, have red countless examples on these forums)

-Theming in terms of readability: Appropriate tweaking or even removing or replacing abilities to make a character as readable as possible (preventing burden of knowledge).

Tweaking of a spell for readability ? Example: Trundle ult - it's cool to do some damage and steal the defense of your enemy, but not only is there lack of counterplay currently (if you are in range Trundle can cast it), it's not readable at all, just a 'cloud of filth' - god knows what this ability should do.

With the Redesign Trundle (obviously, keeping his current Q, W and E) - Trundle has an channeled ultimate where he jumps onto the targeted enemy and starts nibbling on the enemy, dealing X amount of damage over time while stealing their defensive stats. (More readable, more counterplay, you can 'QSS' this guy off of you plus it's more readable; you get this ugly troll will hop on you and start nibbling, doing damage stealing your defenses) - really made me think of 'Gollum in LOTR III: Return of the King.'

Ability-replacement ? For example: ItemsGuy originally left Janna's passive as the current passive, I pointed out that adding Nami's passive to Janna redesign would not only make her cooler (actually getting to speed up allies yourself is cool) but also makes sense: Speeding up your allies by blowing the wind on their feet makes sense in terms of theming and Janna as a character - so removed from Nami's kit, moved onto Janna as it fits her better.

DISCLAIMER: All of these Redesigns aren't nessecarily there to make the champion specifically more fun for YOU. All of the Redesigns would make better characters in terms of Theming; playstyle, uniqueness, readability & Counterplay. You might dislike the Redesigns of your current favourite champions, but you might like tons of Redesigns better than current champions !

Also please note - none of the changes in these (theoretical) redesigns are intended for LoL as it currently stands and are purely examples of what champions could've been if their kits had stayed true to their theming 100%, creating playstyles that better reflect the nature of the champions they belong to. If anything, they would be more fit for a sequel game--a LoL 2 of sorts--allowing fans of the old champions to stick with kits they're familiar with, while giving Riot the opportunity to start anew and create stronger designs with the experience they've accumulated over the years.

We encourage you to leave feedback to possibly make Redesigns even better - it is VERY MUCH POSSIBLE some current Redesigns could be better or might not work.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Perifear
^ I've struggled with this myself - wether I currently like some champions better than the Redesigns is insignificant: Their theme's could be more specific, their kits more unified, their character/over-all feel could be more specific, it's for the best that these champions get changes if Riot ever considers making a sequel.

And then again - what of it ? I'm not sure if I would like champion X or Y Redesign better, yet I KNOW I would enjoy something like Leblanc, Malphite, Morgana and Zyra WAY more !

WANT TO READ ITEMSGUY'S REDESIGNS ? Scroll down in this thread and read the Redesigns + the thought process behind all of them, I've reserved 2 comments that are currently functioning as our redesigns + thought-process section.

'there's always a reason why we do or don't do something.' - Keep that in mind, feel free to ask questions if you have.






FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

1. Why ? - why do you opt for more unique/dedicated playstyles, are they nessecary ?
2. To create these more unique/dedicated playstyles you use the theme of a champion as a tool and try to capture the very essence of the theme, creating a very defined playstyle– why do you use ‘theming’ as a tool ?
3. When using theming as a tool you also like to mention/use realistic elements – why ?
4. Why is using lore as a tool to justify a design a bad sign ?
5. Wouldn’t more unique/defined playstyles be OP ?
6. ‘Champion X doesn’t need changes – maybe some abilities don’t make sense but they are still cool !’
7.1 ‘You are getting rid of alot of options/abilities for a champion’s kit with this design-philosophy – how is this good, how is this being creative ?’
7.2 How are you being creative ? You are restricting yourself from alot of stuff !
8.‘Do you think current champion-designs restricts the game from having other cool abilities ?’

EDIT: FAQ isn't hotlinked (sorry) ItemsGuy didn't upload the FAQ seperately yet. For now, to get to the FAQ please click this link/thread, scroll all the way down, don't mind the OP untill you get to a comment starting with the FAQ:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2920493


@RIOT + OUTRO

@Morello:Me and ItemsGuy had a very very hard time discussing if we should invite you over here or not - no offense, but we really think you are 'though nuts to crack.' We'd expect comments such as 'GTFO TO DOTA if you think League is bad' and so forth.

However, after we've had our chat/a confirmation (in terms of you holding on to Darius's playstyle 'the longer you stay close the more balls Darius will wreck) in the 'Morello how would you have designed Darius' thread - we changed our mind and I hope we've made the right choice.

I think that you would get our points and most likely agree (especially through all of the links we have provided where multiple people working at Riot indirectly echo the same thing we are trying to say) - so frankly, the ultimate question is: Where does Riot stand on a 'LoL 2' point of view ?

@Xypherous:We got this response on our larger, more detailed thread concerning theming, just gonna leave this here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bloodwolf (Hozzászólás 33386285)
Very nice interesting thread!!! I would also invite Xypherous to this thread, as he is one of the most transparent, honest and analytic designers, pretty much always open to comment on different topics whenever he can or has something to say.

@IronStylus: We personally have invited you because you're awesome.

@FeralPony: FeralPony: In the past you've responded to my 'Complexity for the sake of complexity' thread a while ago back on EUW/. The thread was bad, the title misleading - complexity for the sake of complexity is bad game design, agreed. I tried to say the same thing in the OP, yet obviously due to the title the discussion was all about 'the complexity for the sake of complexity' argument.

You gave a very detailed post where I am still absolutely grateful for, that's the reason I've invited you aswell.

This thread/threads we made are more detailed, better written & constructed, clarify'ing our points way better than I could ever have imagined.
Hope to see you jump in again !





All of that said - thank you Riot for making such a great game in the first place, regardless of our reasoning of how we think it could be a lot better.

Me and ItemsGuy are both long-term players and love the game dearly, I feel nothing but gratitude for the amount of work Riot has done for us.
This is going to sound extremely cheesy but frankly, it is true - I've been through some stuff IRL and I think I would have had it a lot harder if I couldn't get my hands on League, I hereby thank everyone; from the designers to the engineers to the Riot support to all the people I have ever played with. THANK YOU.

Thanks to all the people supporting us in our previous threads, let's hope we can finally get this final thread rolling and get some answers !

Sincerely,

Bestbilbo (aka Perifear) and ItemsGuy

ItemsGuy 01-17-2013 01:53 PM

(Reserved)

EDIT: 1/27/2013

This post is still reserved for reasons that will be stated in the near future, but for now, I feel that it's important to highlight something "UnbearableBears" (nice name, by the way) has to say about my work here. In short? This guy absolutely "gets it" and it puts a grin on my face that would put the Cheshire Cat to shame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnbearableBears (Hozzászólás 33960623)
First things first: awesome work ItemsGuy and BestBilbo. I really find the idea of Items guy's lol2 to be awesome. I am comfortable with the change because 1) Lol2 seems way more accessible. Accessibility is always something a game should strive for and Items Guys rework really do make a champ play like they should. 2) lol2 seems more fun than lol1. The amount of diversity in the champions kits is astounding. GD always cries they want champs to be more unique whenever a new hero is revealed/released and yet many people are complaining about Items Guy's rework which do exactly that. Each champion in "lol2" have their own unique play style and strengths and weaknesses.

The biggest complaint I kept reading throughout the comments is that Items guy's reworks don't pay attention to balance/competitive scene. However I see it the opposite way. With more diversity is champion kits, champion selection of becomes more than just pick this champ because it's better than that champ and more about combining the strengths of your team to cover the weaknesses of your team. If you look at pro tournaments, it's rare to see more than 20-30 champions picked more than 1-2 times (20-30 is pretty generous). That is an issue considering there are over 100 champions. Each champion should be a competitive pick even at the pro level. However a champion shouldn't be picked because it's the best/better than any other champ at its role. A champ shod be picked because it fits the overall strategy the team is going for. Does your team need a champion to help provide map control? Consider picking up Heimerdinger for a mid or Galio to support. Does your team want to have the strength to push forward as a group and be able to knock towers down without effort? Consider having a Leona in the front of your team and a Morgana in the middle keeping everyone alive while you have champs with long range behind them like caitlyn or Tristana to tear turrets down. This adds a lot more depth to the competitive scene. If team A sees team B pick Leona and Morgana then team A knows they need champs with high mobility to split their team apart or be able to flank from behind. Team A should consider champs like Shaco or a Diana pick who can use her curved gap closer to get around Leona's shield. Team B will have to react to the Shaco and Diana picks and choose champions that can keep those champions in one place, preventing them from using their mobility like Skarner who will stun them with creeping crystal if they move too much.

Tldr: "lol2" improves the compete scene by making it more accessible to viewers since viewers will be able to tell what a champion can and will do just by looking at them. This is paramount if League of Legends ever wants to become a full fledged spectator sport. If lol ever wants viewers outside of people who play the game, this issue will need to be addressed. On the plus side, improving accessibility will make the game more open to new players (which will be bound to happen if lol became a "full-fledged spectator sport").

Additionally, lol2 improves the competitive scene by making champion section and strategy much more important than pick the op champions. Many more strategies will be available in lol2.

Sorry if this all seemed sloppy. It's hard to edit when you type from your phone. Great work both of you, especially ItemsGuy. I wish you the best and really hope you do get the opportunity to work at Riot


William12726 01-17-2013 02:00 PM

Doesn't this thread already exist? Feel like i've seen it before

BestBilbo 01-17-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William12726 (Hozzászólás 33591752)
Doesn't this thread already exist? Feel like i've seen it before

We really wanted to opt for a new title though it wasn't very much possible due to the restrictions/limitations in terms of characters, we only had 40 characters for the title as we included more Red's (Morello, Xyph) to respond in this thread.

This thread is a summary of all of the threads we've made concerning the current champion design model. Same title - different thread.

Really encourage you to read this, we've hotlinked as much as we can (most importantly the parts where Riot seems to indirectly agree with us) :)

PS: We've announced quite some time ago we would make/come up with a complete overview/summary thread to gather all of our arguments in one package, this is what this thread is all about.

LightningAcorns 01-17-2013 02:03 PM

I really appreciate all the work put into this. Been a fan of ItemsGuy's reworks for a while, and I think that League could benefit from a number of them.

SlumlordThanatos 01-17-2013 02:07 PM

I've found out that writing a graduate thesis for a forum post will, more often than not, simply disappoint you and waste your time. Like this little gem. Although "little" is probably not the best term to use here.

I mean, if someone is trying to keep a discussion going, simply having a red chime in and say, well, anything will keep it going. Or else, it fades into GD oblivion.

Also, we're still wondering about some of the design decisions surrounding Steel Legion Lux, since IronStylus said he'd answer us WEEKS ago....

ItemsGuy 01-17-2013 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headhunter228 (Hozzászólás 33592015)
I've found out that writing a graduate thesis for a forum post will, more often than not, simply disappoint you and waste your time. Like this little gem. Although "little" is probably not the best term to use here.

I mean, if someone is trying to keep a discussion going, simply having a red chime in and say, well, anything will keep it going. Or else, it fades into GD oblivion.

Also, we're still wondering about some of the design decisions surrounding Steel Legion Lux, since IronStylus said he'd answer us WEEKS ago....

Ah, I remember this thread! I still have it open in a tab on Google Chrome for Android, been meaning to get around to reading it.

And this is really just stuff to pass the time and get feedback from the community, to be honest--I'm not expecting rave reviews all across the board or even more than 20-30 pages of discussion, honestly. While I have already put my best foot forward and sent a summer internship application in to Riot (should be hearing from them by the 14th, hella exciting) so I can get (at least some of) the experience required to apply for a full-time job there, I want to see what the community has to say and whether it has any weight in what's going on here.

For instance, some of the redesigns have been tweaked (improved, imo) due to comments on the threads--and I even picked up some champions that I was considering leaving out and redesigning them after others mentioned that they had some potential (like Leona and Diana, for example). If even one more instance like that can happen in this thread, that's really all I need. Otherwise, I'm just here to explain why I've said what I've said and hopefully enlightening a few folks who think things are as good as they can be right now.

BestBilbo 01-17-2013 02:28 PM

Here's the thought-process/explanation behind EVERY redesign.

-Ahri, the Nine-tailed Fox.
Readability of Ahri is fine, yet we feel she could have more of a defined theme echo'ing through her playstyle - as currently she's no more than 'generic mage with extra mobility'.
With this Redesign she gets to be more unique, more specific and more dynamic.

-Akali. the Fist of Shadow.
Nitpick-champion - she was already kind of a stealthy sneaky shadow'ish Assasin, but a bit more emphasis on that with this redesign.

-Alistar, the Minotaur.

Current Alistar is quite a mess and is a perfect example of a design that restricts Riot of having other cool abilities in the game.

What's absolutely bull-like ? Imagine an ability called 'Bullrush' - a bull charging up with anger and then dashing forward ? That's very characteristic for a bull !
His kit is very satisfying however though it is little relevant to him as a bull (the random heal in his kit especially)
With this Redesign Alistar gets to be an actual raging bull now, this guy is going to charge after you.

If you like to read more reasoning behind Alistar Redesign please read question/answer 7.2 of our FAQ:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2920493 (don't mind the OP - scroll down to the FAQ wich is the 3rd post in the thread I believe)

PS: His current kit is so satisfying and cool that it has been replaced onto a more-fitting character/visual appearance, if you are interested you can checkout 'Edmund' one of the placeholder champions - in this case the placeholder of Alistar's current kit.

-Amumu , the Sad Mummy.

Nit-Pick champion, a bit more emphasis on being a lonely mummy: Passive, Q, W, E unchanged, only changes his R:
Instead of ‘randomly’ giving him a CC ability for the sake of CC ability he now has an ability that does something similar but fits his theme and appearance: The Sad Mummy actually gets to hug people now. Very funny.

-Anivia, the Cryophoenix

Similar like Alistar, the appearance of these characters have little relevance to their kits. Tell me, does Anivia play like an actual phoenix, an actual ice bird ? No, only her passive lives up to this sort of character.
Her Q, W, E and R are just ice magic spells, you wouldn't expect a bird to do these abilities - you rather would think a 'generic wizard' specialized in ice magic would cast this as the abilities simply are 'popping out ice spells out of the blue'.
Anivia Redesign - She actually gets to play like an actual ice bird/phoenix now.

--Annie, the Dark Child.

Readability, depth and counterplay are Annie's problem - quite a mess. For example she has a needlessly added stun-mechanic in her kit that doesn't make sense (as you wouldn't expect fire to stun, readability flaw) and so on. On top of that, the entire stun-mechanic barely has counterplay: 'If you are in range, you are going to get stunned'
Besides all of that she tends to have a very very low skillcap, wich can get quite boring.
While 'a child with a giant demonic teddybear' is a very cool theme and appearance, she currently doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of 'visual strength'.
Her current kit lays more emphasis on Annie doing all the damage while the Giant Demonic Teddybear you would expect to do all the damage is left in the dust, it's more of a minor extra in her kit..

With Annie Redesign this is fixed, the sadistic crazy child gets to manipulate the giant demonic teddybear, wich is more realistic as it makes sense, greatly improving her readability. (much like current Orianna gets to manipulate her ball).
Annie Redesign ultimately lives up to better theming, better readability, more counterplay and depth - the ultimate 'Little Sister - Big Daddy playstyle'

-Ashe, the Frost Archer.
‘No really, put that apple on your head.’ – Ashe

Nitpick-champion, already much of a frost arches though now she actually gets to aim and be precise (emphasis on being the ultimate ‘bow’ champion, rather than only having her ult capturing this aspect currently.
So basically more specific themed playstyle, laying more emphasis on using a bow: aiming, being precise.

-Brand, the Burning Vengeance.

Click here for detailed reasoning behind this Redesign - read there why current Brand is kind of a mess:

Long story short; currently he has theming, readability and depth problems. Fire doesn't stun and is needlessly added to his kit (readability and theming flaw) - as his theme and playstyle should be more specific on how fire works in the first place: Fire spreads and burns (only his passive, E and ult capture this currently).

With Redesign Brand you actually get to be a Master of Fire - rather than a dude who has a specific combo all the time (low skillcap/depth) while making more sense along the way.

-Caitlyn, the Sheriff of Piltover.

Looking at her splash art - where she has insanely big scopes on her immensely big rifle (sniper rifle) - you wouldn't expect this chick to lay down a few traps and shoot nets and stuff (readability and theming problem).

With Redesign Caitlyn she actually gets to snipe people now, as 'Sniper' was her entire theme in the first place.
Don't come at us with the 'her theme is Sheriff argument', we've dismantled this argument in our FAQ and falls under Burden of Knowledge - as her lore would justify the unlogical flaws of her kit.

-Cho'Gath, the Terror of the Void.

Cho'Gath - kind of a mess aswell in terms of counterplay, readability and theming.

Readability: 2 out of 4 abilities have to do with spikes while the spikes aren't really attached to his visual appearance - you wouldn't expect this creature to do such stuff.
His silence, even worse. Looking at his splash art you wouldn't possible guess this guy is going to scream blue stuff in front of him silencing you for X duration, on top of that it barely has counterplay 'if you are in range you'll eat the silence'.

Redesign Cho'Gath has an extremely unique playstyle and is very much fitting to him as a character as the entire kit is designed around his original source of inspiration - Cho'Gath placeholder included (the placeholder of a champion that's all about eating stuff and getting bigger) !

-Corki, the Daring Bombardier.

More emphasis on being an actual pilot , more of a defined pilot/'flying a plane' playstyle (as he has way more characteristic abilities therefore also improving on readability) - while making Corki less straight forward along the way.

Diana, Scorn of the Moon

'Moontheme' isn't very readable (because astral bodies are both too vast and too vague to build a solid and readable kit off of) - none of Diana's abilities really make sense, they are pretty random and adding 'moonparticles' just to make them fit is kind of a bad sign.
Diana Redesign has an entire 'Scythe' playstyle hacking and slashing and killing her enemies while still maintaining her high mobility gameplay.

-Dr. Mundo, the Mad Man of Zaun.

More distinctive playstyle with appropriate abilities that match this playstyle and theme.

Place-holder champion. -Edmund, the Abomination.

My first reaction when I red ItemsGuy's Alistar redesign was: 'No no please no, okay maybe Alistar's current kit doesn't really fit him as the ultimate raging bull, but god his current kit is so fun and satisfying !'

As I was in a skype conversation with him, he laughed and sent me a link.
Introducing 'Edmund' the champion with Alistar's current kit that fit him perfectly, readable, appropriate, and most of all: a very fun and fitting appearance + lore making a very cool and unified character. Oh yeah; Edmund would be the first black champion entering the League, people have been asking/wondering for one for quite some time now.

Edmund is an extremely readable character, everything he does makes sense as it fits with his visual appearance.

-Ezreal, the Prodigal Explorer

His theme is more defined - Ezreal barely lives up to the 'ultimate exploxer champion'
With Ezreal Redesign - Ezreal gets to be the ultimate explorer. You are encouraged to move, A LOT.

-Fiddlesticks, the Harbinger of Doom.

Yet again quite a mess in terms of readability, counterplay, depth and theming.
First of all: Fiddlesticks just looks like a scarecrow, he doesn't really play like one as the most characteristic thing about a scarecrow is that they are static and you rather not get close to them.

Readability: You wouldn't expect this character to drain life like this (still very awesome therefore removed to another Redesign) - etcetera.

Counterplay: The well-known annoying fear, if you are in range for this ability ? NP go ahead and eat a 3second fear. Have a nice day.

Depth: Fiddlesticks is extremely repetitive, every game you get to do the same thing over and over again. If you have played Fiddlesticks alot I think most of us would consider him rather dull/a bit boring, it's always the same, walk up to people: E then Q W, for teamfights: R in, (zyhonas), pop cooldowns. Not alot of specific depth or decision-making.

Redesign Fiddlesticks actually behaves and plays like a scarecrow now, having more depth along the way.

-Fiora, the Grand Duelist.

Theming and readability problem - Current R: Try to hit it with on as many targets as you can - not really fitting for a champion who's supposed to be the ultimate duelist.

Redesign Fiora has a more defined kit/playstyle as a duelist, she cuts her opponents with style.
Sidenote: Fiora's current ult is an extremely cool ability however, therefore moved to another Redesign.

-Fizz, the Tidal Trickster.

You expect this creature from the sea to have more interaction with the deep sea - more interaction with his shark-buddy.
Redesign Fizz is focused on still being an extremely mobile slippery character while revolving more around his shark aswell - not just an 'hey I'll shoot this here and something will knock the target up'

-Galio, the Sentinel's Sorrow

Rather than a bunch of unreadable abilities slapped onto Galio he now has a true 'Gargoyle' playstyle, originally ItemsGuy thought he'd keep Galio out as he would look to similar to Fiddlesticks Redesign yet he got inspiration to give Galio a complete new flavour, very much different from Fiddlesticks.

-Gangplank, the Saltwater Scourge.

The pirate that is more of a pirate now: A pirate is a sneaky unfair character, they plunder/take what they want too and are gone before you could even react.
You'd probably come back at us with 'Redesign Gangplank is totally unfair and not-counterplayable' - wrong.

ItemsGuy wants and got rid off abilities without counterplay if they are needlessly added to a kit not fitting theme or playstyle.

As explained above - pirates are unfair and get what they need before you can respond (QUICK) while with this Redesign he still has defined strengths and weaknesses - Gangplank is about small skirmishes, if you get him to commit to a fight in the long run, you'll notice you are getting the upper hand.

-Garen, the Might of Demacia.

Spin to win kids – no drastic changes, but makes sense what he did change. Fine.

-Gragas, the Rabble Rouser.

Appropriate, logical changes in terms of readability and theming.

-Graves, the Outlaw.

Current Graves has some readability and theming issues.

Shotgun manliness ? Currently his Q and R do reflect this very well - however especially his smoke screen is totally out of place - it doesn't have anything to do with a 'Shotgun-theme'

Yet again - please don't use lore as an excuse here as we've dismantled that argument in our FAQ, falling under 'Burden of Knowledge' - people shouldn't be forced to read Graves's lore and see he has a 'modified shotgun' made for him, justifying the unlogical flaw/ability in his kit; the Smoke screen ability.
Redesign Graves is 100% full Shotgun manliness.

Sidenote: The removed ability is still very cool though yet probably fitting better for a champion that uses smoke entirely - I believe ItemsGuy has a kit/champion somewhere living up to a pure 'smoke'ish' playstyle (I've red the design and gods it's cool).

-Hecarim, Shadow of War.

Nit-pick champion - more emphasis on being an actual minotaur while adding more depth (getting rid of the braindead Q mashing)
Redesign Hecarim has minor changes more fitting to his theme and appearance.

-Heimerdinger, the Revered Inventor.
THIS GUY GETS TO INVENT HIS OWN SH*T.

-Janna, the Storm's Fury.

Redesign Janna gets to be the ultimate Windmage, having a very specific playstyle and presence in a team adding more depth and better readability to her. (Currently a 'random' unpredicatable windshield plus a non-counterable 'If you are in range you are going to eat this' slow)
Obviously, current Monsoon and Howling Gale are still there as they fit her new specific playstyle perfectly.

-Karthus, the Death Singer.

Theming and readability problems.

Q: Exploding skittles ?, W: wall that randomly slows, E: damaging over time circle around him - none of these abilities are relevant to him as being a lich/'Death Singer' - argueably aside from his ult right now.

Karthus Redesign gets to be the ultimate champion that uses some groove and boogy now, having a defined unique playstyle that is relevant to him as character and is readable.

Note: Similar like saying the Smokescreen on Graves isn’t really appropriate but is still very cool for a champion that uses smoke entirely, same thing goes for Karthus ult: ItemsGuy has a few champions designed of his own where he has converted these abilities to complete new characters/champions.

-Kassadin, the Void Walker.

Slight changes, more emphasis of 'cutting through space'. Obviously keeping Rift Walk in there, as that's core of his character and playstyle.

-Kayle, the Judicator.

Quite a mess in terms of readability, theming and counterplay.

Theming & Readability: You don't expect an angel to throw a red magic ball that slows you, not only does that make her unlogical and unfitting to an 'Angel' character - it has no counterplay on top of that as it's 'If you are in range you'll eat this spell'

Redesign Kayle has a specific playstyle and kit that reflects theme and improving on readability and counterplay.

-Kennen, the Heart of the Storm.

Nitpick-champion, Kennen already was a cool pure ‘lightning rat’, though kit redesigned to a high mobility playstyles with more emphasis how lightning ‘chains’ and seaks out and hits nearby targets.

Basically kept the same concept but made it more unique, more of a defined playstyle and less of a ‘Hello I’m Kennen the walking ult’.
Redesign Kennen is more defined (taking the actual behaviour of electricity into account, therefore improving on readability aswell) - and has more depth.

Kha'Zix, the Voidreaver.

Despite him being one of the most readable characters currently (you understand why he does what he does, huge wings, spikes on his back and huge claws) - though, he doesn't really reflect a certain unique playstyle that matches his appearance, he's basically a character that got some abilities slapped on to him that work well together, the fact that he looks as he looks is not really relevant to his kit.

This includes his passive and his evolving mechanic.

Passive: Little relevant to him as a character - moved to Nocturne Redesign (as this fits Nocturne WAY better)
Evolving Mechanic: Little relevant to him as a character (please don't mention the lore argument here as we've dismantled this poor argument to be Burden of Knowledge as it would require people to read his entire lore to understand why he has this mechanic) - move on to Viktor Redesign (makes sense, this dude is an inventor in a robotsuit, he gets to improve/evolve his suit)

Redesign Kha'Zix has changes for a more dedicated/specific playstyle that reflects his theme/appearance better.


-Kog'Maw, the Mouth of the Abyss.

Current Kog'Maw is pretty readable, yet stuff like his passive does not contribute to his other abilities. Does it make sense ? Sure it does, a toxic corrosive alien exploding - it just doesn't sync/unify with his kit at all.

Redesign Kog'Maw has more emphasis on capturing an 'acid' feel and playstyle, wich currently only Bio-Arcane Barrage and Caustic Spittle capture.

-Leblanc, the Deciever.
Riot, please.
‘the Deciever’ is barely where Leblanc is known for currently. Instead of being a huge misleading surprising character/element her kit SHOULD’VE captured she’s more known for the ‘Omg noob champ Q R epic damage’ champion.

Redesign Leblanc she gets to be the ultimate deciever - decieving people and acting with the element of surprise.

-Lee Sin, the Blind Monk.
Quote from the 'Preseason Balance Update 2 Patch Preview':
'Remember the April Fool's Lee Sin champion spotlight where Phreak said this: Lee Sin is a ranged, melee, Tanky DPS, Assasin, Mage, Tank, Support, Jungler. He excells at everything ! - Unfortunately, that's too true at the moment. He forfills all those roles relatively effectively.'
Remember how we've mentioned 'OP release Jayce Syndrome' or the imbalance of the combination with turrets and two generic mage abilities on Heimerdinger (OP release Heimerdinger).
Lee sin is quite a mess in terms of counterplay, theming and readability, his entire kit is a mishmash of abilities that work well together but aren't defined, hence I've red a lot of comments since Lee Sin's release where people have continously been saying 'Lee Sin will never be balanced' - there is way too much in his kit and there's not a lot you can do about it. 'This guy will r@pe and camp you early but is weaker later on' is pretty lame.

Theme-wise, Lee sin doesn't play like he's a blind monk, it's just part of his appearance, not gameplay. (Aside from a MINOR part in his E ability)
Redesign Lee Sin focuses on being an actual blink monk that uses his monk abilities/senses to try and locate the enemy with sound and patience and then beating them with masterful marterial arts.

Here's the link of the patch preview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drNRCr8KTPA

Leona, the Radiant Dawn

Much like Diana, 'Sun' isn't a very readable theme (because astral bodies are both too vast and too vague to build a solid and readable kit off of), while still keeping the element/part of the character in there, Leona is more focused on a playstyle with her huge shield now. (Her sword isn't relevant to her in any way anyway, she doesn't do damage with it really and 'dashing up to people with a sword ? How exactly ?)

Redesign Leona is the ultimate Shield-Champion now, specifically focused on Defensive play.


Lulu, the Fae Sorceress

Lulu's abilities aren't really readable, she spews out random magic lines that should slow you and so on, she could still very much be a character if her entire readability and kit revolves around Pix: Making Pix the centerpiece of her playstyle and kit, while keeping alot of abilities/elements of current Lulu in there, such as her ult and polymorph.

Redesign Lulu improves on readability and theming - making Pix the centerpiece of her kit.

-Lux, the Lady of Luminosity

Readability issues and lack of theming.

Her W barely makes sense, her ult is just a big lazer and her snare is the worst readable ability; light cages that snare me ?

Redesign Lux completely focuses on light. Lux will be able to reveal even the darkest places on the Field of Justice.

-Malphite, the Shard of the Monolith.

Malphite is a huge mess in terms of theming, readability, counterplay and depth.

Readability: Magical moving rock that slows you ? Not really readable.

Depth & Counterplay, concerning depth; Malphite R's in and then presses Q, W, E mindlessly after.
Current counterplay ? 'Initiate before this guy does', not a lot you can do here.

Malphite Redesign focuses on being the ultimate walking rock with great force improving on theme, readability and providing more options of counterplay.

-Malzahar, the Prophet of the Void.

Currently, Malzahar is pretty much a champion with some abilities slapped onto him, his abilities don't really reflect a specific readable playstyle from the get-go.
Redesign Malzahar focuses on being the ultimate master of the crabarmy, cool as balls - having his Voidlings as the centerpiece of his kit.

-Maokai, the Twisted Treant.

Redesign Maokai focuses on being an actual treant playing like a living angry forest and he'll make sure that he'll grow the ground to his advantage making him a very terratorial grumpy old stump.

To read about more about this reasoning behind this Redesign/explanation of why his current kit is pretty lackluster, read this: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2920493

And question/answer 7.2 of our FAQ: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2920493 (don't mind the OP and scroll all the way down to the FAQ, wich is the third post in that thread I believe)

-Master Yi, the Wuyu Bladesman.

Master Yi - one of the oldest characters in the game, currently has quite some issues, especially in terms of readability and theme.

Readability & Theme: His ult has nothing to do with his 'Samurai' theme, it's just a needlessly added ability where they thought it would be cool for him to run faster.
His heal ? Probably one of the most mis-placed, most unreadable abilities in the game, it has nothing to do with his theme and appearance, therefore you wouldn't expect this at all.

Redesign Master Yi focuses on having a 'True Samurai' playstyle: They are swift and certain.

-Miss Fortune, the Bounty Hunter.

Current Miss Fortune is allright in terms of readability and counterplay, yet theme-wise she barely lives up to her theme, 'Bounty Hunter' is just a name slapped to her as she doesn't really hunt at all - arguably a little with her current passive.

Right now she just shoots a lot - it's not really relevant to her as the 'Bounty Hunter champion, so guess what;
Redesign Miss Fortune actually gets to hunt for bounty now.

-Morgana, the Fallen Angel.

Opposing to her sister - 'Fallen/dark angel' isn't really as readable as 'Angelic Angel' as a theme for a character, that doesn't mean ItemsGuy couldn't make Morgana more specific and readable though.

Whereas Kayle is very Aggressive, Morgana is a defensive type of character compared to her current state: Mage with random abilities attached to her - not really relevant to her theme or appearance (her ult does this a little though)

Redesign Morgana is one of my ultimate freakin' favourites out of all these redesigns of ItemsGuy, read it and sketch the situation: You are the support yet the freakin' centerpiece of teamfighting, everyone literally should move and BE around you.

This playstyle/redesign reminded me of an awesome clip out of the movie troy (scroll to 1:25, watch from there), suit yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpLtXIlkyYA

A moving defensive bulk of people working together ? Awesome !

Nami, the Tidecaller

Nami is quite a mess, it's not like they made her the 'watermage' they promised, all they did it come up with a kit with abilities that a support should have, not whats characteristic entirely, Nami Redesign improves on readability and has characteristic theming abilities, with an entire new kit. (while keeping her giant ult wave in there, as it's pretty iconic and cool - it just gets to work differently, more readable and awesome).


-Nasus, the Corator of the Sands

Current Nasus has a pretty huge problem: 'Yo guys I'm going top lane and going to AFK farm for 40 minutes.'
Not only is this passive and quite boring, it's pretty unreliable aswell (hence Nasus hasn't seen any competitive play for like an age). On top of that, current Nasus only farms up his Q, it's a mechanic that does not effect the rest of his abilities, screwing over readability a bit and depth.
Redesign Nasus remains having a patient playstyle where your effectiveness revolves around spending your collected souls (not permanent-collected souls, you can collect lots of souls in a small amount of time with a cap and you spend them by using an ability).

This 'Keeper of Souls' playstyle made Nasus more of a readable and a defined character, that should also fix his current 'Guys cya in 40 minutes got to farm Q' problem.

-Nidalee, the Bestial Huntress.

Currently there is not much of a 'Bestial Huntress' in Nidalee - just because she has a low CD pounce doesn't mean she is a defined hunter.
Redesign Nidalee completely focuses on being a hunter, fixing her current unreliable AP playstyle along the way.

BestBilbo 01-17-2013 02:28 PM

-Nocturne, the Eternal Nightmare

Currently, looking at Nocturne's splash art you get the chills, you'd expect this character to literally haunt people and kill stuff - I’ve always felt Nocturne should be like this Redesign.

However, currently, if Nocturne does not snowball (wich he is even encouraged not to do so as a jungler to give away kills) he mostly ends up being the b*tch of a team.
Ult in, walk out. Building Nocturne with alot of damage, you’ll die. Build him tanky ? You barely feel having a presence as a dude who SHOULD literally haunt scare and assasinate people.

Now I'm very well aware of the fact that Nocturne has seen some competitive play in lane - he could still be more awesome and more readable and more defined as a character and playstyle, the Redesign truely living up to the expect of haunting targets. (This new passive fits Nocturne way better than the current holder of this passive).

He’ll get to haunt, scare, and kill people now.Hhe’ll be able to do everything what you think he should do when looking at his splash art, rather than turning out to be the ‘ulting meatwall' most of the time.
Also tweaked his spellshield as it wasn't readable at all (it is not relevant to his character - the ability was needlessly added) - changed to a more fitting ability.


-Nunu, the Yeti Rider.

Nunu, has some issues with readability and theming, yet his depth would be ENTIRELY his problem.

Right now Nunu is no more than a walking (counterjungling) attack speed buff and permaslow-bot.

He has a one kinda big readability issue: His ult is little relevant to him as a character, players are enforced to know and learn this dude has a charging ultimate for the sake of having it - there is not a lot of help players get to help them understand.

Nunu Redesign COMPLETELY fixes everything, Nunu gets to do stuff that is relevant to him as a tiny little annoying bully, being more readable. Willump finally gets to be the Yeti he always wanted to be, adding way more depth to the champion over-all.
The new ultimate of Nunu: Not only extremely readable, relevant and common to people, it's also extremely funny, RIOT PLS !

-Olaf, the Berserker.

Nit-pick champion, Olaf is already very much a berserker - his readability and theme is completely fine as it is yet there is one problem: There is not alot of counterplay to Olaf ulting and screwing over your carry.
Passive, Q, W, E are unchanged yet ItemsGuy only tweaked R to lay an ‘emphasis’ on being a berserker that tunnelvisions on a particular target and doesn’t give a sh*t, more defining the theme/character and playstyle, defining Olaf's strengths and weaknesses providing more counterplay to an ulting Olaf.
'the more distinctive a playstyle is the more counterplay it has to it'.
Redesign Olaf is not a lot different from current Olaf, just more defined and less anti-fun/imbalanced by some small tweak on Ragnarok (R).
‘The more distinctive/defined a playstyle is the more counterplay there is’
With this Ragnarok change he’s more of a ‘realistic’ Berserker, while offering more options how to counterplay this reckless bad@ss.

-Pantheon, the Artisan of War.

Nit-pick champion, Pantheon already is a manly spartan yet he is pretty toxic in terms of counterplay.
'In range for stun ? Here have a stun !' - 'In range for a spear ? Here mate have X amounts of spears !'

Not only does current Pantheon lack counterplay, he also has a very low skillcap/depth.

Redesign Panteon has WAY more depth by focusing on decision-making between being aggresive with Spear and Shield for some defense.
Pantheon will be far from straightforward now, providing more counterplay for his enemies while still being the manly Spartan.

Place-holder champion: -Peatrice, the Venus Deathtrap.

Redesign Cho'Gath now has a more readable and appropriate kit/playstyle living up to his original 'source of inspiration'.
The playstyle of eating stuff and getting bigger and bigger is still a very awesome concept though, Peatrice does this.

-Poppy, the Iron Ambassador.

Nitpick-champion, not alot of drastic changes, but appropriate ones to define playstyle.

-Rammus, the Armordillo.

Currently his kit had two weird things: He taunts for the sake of taunting, it’s in there just for the sake of giving Rammus CC, it doesn’t really fit his character nor theme as you have NO idea how he actually taunts people, he just walks up to them, touches them and then you should ‘just assume’ this guy just taunts you for whatever reason. This ability is pretty toxic as it barely has counterplay; 'You in range ? No problem get taunted for 3 seconds bro !'

Same for his current ult: You don’t see how or why he makes the earth crumble/shake around him, Rammus can just walk (normally) as if nothing’s happening. ‘OK’ – I guess.

Redesign Rammus is way more readable and more fitting to his theme/character while still being he a tank and a character that shouldn’t or can’t be ignored while keeping the very already cool, readable and characteristic elements of Rammus in there: Defensive Ball Curl (hiding in his shell) and rolling around in as a Ball.

-Renekton, the Butcher of the Sands

Made renekton more readable as a character rather than 'Crocodile with a weapon' to a more specific highly aggressive butcher-playstyle.

-Riven, the Exile.

Currently, Riven barely revolves around her iconic 'Broken Blade'
Redesign Riven is 100% focused around building her huge ass sword while still keeping high mobile 'sword/battle dancer' rythm.

Placeholder champion: -Ronan, the Fisherman.

We are very well aware of the fact we would have to explain if we'd replace Blitzcrank with Ronan. The problems Blitzcrank has is that he is not very readable, for example you look at his splash art or his in-game appearance and you have NO idea what this guy is going to do.

Secondly, while we always want to keep as many champions in the game as we can with all these redesigns, a 'Robot' playstyle/theme is just very vague, currently Blitzcrank is yet again a champion that is completely designed with abilities for the sake of giving him these effects/CC, he is not unified, just a bunch of abilities 'squirted on a canvas' like abstract art where most people would respond with: 'a 5 year old can do that'.
Ronan, the Fisherman is a supportive champion with a 'Fisherman' playstyle, extremely readable, logical and keeping/having a similar ability to Blitzcrank's Rocket Grab as grabbing someone with a net as a Fisherman is way more readable and characteristic compared to stuffing this ability onto a robot.

-Rumble, the Mechanized Menace.

Nit-pick champion.
Redesign Rumble lays more emphasis on his theme, it has made him even more of an aggresive mechanized yordle in his suit, specific dedicated 'playstyle' while improving on readability aswell.

-Ryze, the Rogue Mage

Redesign Ryze - Typical mage playstyle while increasing his read-ability and depth, making him less straightforward, more understandable and less of a 'facerolling over your keyboard' experience.

-Sejuani, the Winters Wrath
Redesign Sejuani gets to be more of a walking Blizzard while improving on readability along the way.

-Shen, the Eye of Twilight.
Redesign Shen is the ultimate shadow-ninja.

Sion, the Undead Champion

This dude is definetely getting a visual rework and most-likely a kitrework aswell, well we have our rework:
Redesign Sion has a kit more appropriate to his theme, having a defined 'Undead warrior' playstyle, improving on counterplay and readability.
Sidenote: The passive of Sion in this Redesign makes A LOT more sense than the champion that currently holds a similar passive - pretty characteristic right, an undead warrior rising from the grave ?

-Syvana, the Half Dragon.

Redesign Syvana lays an emphasis on being an actual Half-Dragon improving on readability and depth along the way - more harmony and depth between being a human being and in dragon form rather than what she currently is: 'Well Syvana ult it just Syvana in a dragon skin with some empowered effects on her abilities.'

Syndra, the Dark Sovereign

Her current kit is not readable, lacks a central strong theme. 'Just hit your spells and micromanage these balls'.

Redesign Syndra has a completely new kit with a 'blackhole' playstyle. Everyone knows how blackholes work, right ?

-Singed, the Mad Chemist.

Redesign Singed still runs around like a total psychopatic maniac but gets to do more than toggling Q on and off, flinging and slowing people.
Adds way more depth while keeping the very essence of Singed in there, while improving on counterplay and readability aswell.

-Skarner, the Crystal Vanguard.

Nitpick-champion, Skarner is already much of a scorpion though he could live up to this 'Scorpion' theme/playstyle more.
Redesign Skarner lives up to his theme/character as a scorpion completely, such as giving him a very cool and appropriate ability in replacement of his current unreadable E (wich is just a random blue magic line animation right now.. ???).
More unique, less straightforward (getting rid of the constant bashing your finger on Q that barely involves skill) and counterplay.

-Sona, the Maven of the Strings.

Currently, Sona is a champion with little depth, she basically mashes on Q, W, E mindlessly.
The theme/playstyle of playing the appropriate music/chords depending on the situation is currently only captured by her passive wich is only a minor part of her kit. (It is still very cool though)

Redesign Sona completely gets to play the appropriate chords/music for every situation rather than mashing on 3 buttons with an ult (This is what she does currently).

She would be like playing a little version of Guitar Hero in League. Cool.

Note: Her Ultimate would be her bread and butter skill and would have a fairly low cooldown.

PS: In terms of readability - you'd have my approval of this going in the direction of 'Burden of Knowledge'.
However, considering the nature of the theme that fits with the abilities/playstyle combined with the fact that all of these Redesigns would more than compensate for the amount of Burden of Knowledge being removed that currently exists in League, I'm pretty sure there would be more than enough room to fit this Redesign Sona in there, regardless of the fact she requires more reading in to her before people can enjoy themselves.

-Swain, the Master Tactician.

Theme-wise, Swain isn't really a master tactician.
Redesign Swain is more strategic, The Master Tactian can has more of a tactical approach to the game, very defined.

-Taric, the Gem Knight.

Taric's current problems are depth and counterplay.

Depth: very limited skillcap, there's not a whole lot you can do with his kit.
Counterplay: his stun - 'if you are in range you'll get stunned bro !'

Redesign Taric has a more specific and dedicated playstyle increasing his depth and readability while providing more counterplay for his enemies.

-Teemo, the Swift Scout.

Nitpick Champion, already much of a scout.

Redesign Teemo doesn't have a lot of changes, but for example a very good and appropriate change on his ultimate that lays an emphasis on being a scout; he actually gets encouraged to scout ahead now instead of placing shrooms in one particular area.

-Tristana, the Megling Gunner.

Redesign Tristana has some minor tweaks such as tweaking some scaling to have the player feel they are able to use the entire kit to it's full potential while maintaining a unique, distinctive playstyle. Appropriate and logical changes.

-Trundle, the Cursed Troll.

Nitpick Champion, already much of a typical troll.

Redesign Trundle is pretty much the same though especially improves on readability and counterplay. For his ultimate: Extremely readable and appropriate for his character (his current ult is just some cloud of filth: God knows what that should do – it’s not readable nor does it have counterplay, you are required to read have the tooltip to know what it does currently), with the redesign; a nasty gross troll that jumps on you, that starts to nibble on your head ? Very characteristic and readable while providing more counterplay - I immediately thought of Gollum in LOTR III. LOL.

-Tryndamere, the Barbarian King.

Pretty imbalanced as there barely is counterplay to his ult, Tryndamere tends to be a character that's either OP or UP.
Redesign Tryndamere lays an emphasis on being the ultimate raging barbarian while adding way more depth to him rather than spin in -> chicken -> rightclick -> ult -> heal & spin out.
Higher skill-cap, more depth, more dynamic gameplay while still being the ultimate reckless raging barbarian.

-Twitch, the Plague Rat.

Redesign Twitch is improved on readability though is still very much the rat you are used to though now you don't have to buy Runaan's to spread your Deadly Venom stacks: This redesign focuses on Twitch spreading his filth/disease as a specific unique playstyle.

-Varus, the Arrow of Retribution.

Due to Redesign Ashe being more like current Varus, Varus was originally removed from the list of champions that would fit 'LoL 2'.
ItemsGuy did come up with a specific playstyle/theme however, so he was able to keep Varus in there.

Redesign Varus is more readable as a character with a more unique and defined playstyle according to his new central theme.

-Veigar, the Tiny Master of Evil.

Veigar's main problem is readability, his current stun for example makes no sense and is not relevant to him as a character. It's needlessly added to his kit with the mindstate 'Yeah let's just randomly give this guy this cage thingy where people on the edge get stunned'.

Redesign Veigar makes Veigar more of the little evil guy getting stronger over time - having a more defined anti-mage playstyle that's more fitting to him as a character. 'The tiny dude that gets underestimated early on but will grow stronger with time'

--Viktor, the Machine Herald.

Oh god, this makes sense.
Redesign Viktor focuses on being the Machine Herald being able to improve himself/his suit.

-Vladimir, the Crimson Reaper.

Current Vladimir has some issues concerning readability and depth, not only is he very straightforward, especially in teamfights (Try to R most people, pop Q and E over and over again until you are forced to W at the right time, pop Q and E over and over again until the fight is won, lost or you being killed).
In terms of readability - for example, his ult is no more than a 'well I just hit this on people and it'll do damage after a while where in the meantime the effected enemies take more damage' - wich is not relevant to him as a mage/bender that uses blood.

Redesign Vladimir makes a 'Blood Bender' more of a 'Blood Bender'. This redesign specifically focuses on playing around with health/blood, you literally bend it out of you for others to help or to do damage to enemies or steal blood from enemies to help yourself. Vladimir turns into a true pumping heart playstyle, constantly flowing around blood from and to you.

More appropriate to his theme/as a character, a more distinctive unique playstyle, more dynamic.

-Warwick, the Blood Hunter.

Nitpick-champion, Warwick already is much of a hunting werewolf wich we like a lot, though with Redesign Warwick he’ll truly hunt for blood now, even more than he already does with ‘Blood Scent’ only. Added/tweaked abilities in there more appropriate to a werewolf such as dashing 'speeding up for blood' mobility you would expect from a werewolf. Adds way more readability and depth.

-Wukong, the Monkey King.

Wukong's kind of a mess in terms of readability and theme - this dude does NOT play like a monkey at all - he just is/looks like one.
Monkeys are @ssholes and troublemakers, Redesign Wukong lives up to a truely agile monkey-playstyle adding more depth along the way.
Sidenote: You'd probably expected this as most of all his W is very misplaced, a monkey doesn't decieve people and therefore is not readable at all right now, he randomly goes into stealth.

-Yorick, the Gravedigger

Morello considers Yorick one of the most problematic/worst designs in LoL history, as he is very dull and even worse; barely provides counterplay.
Yorick Redesign completely lives up to his theme as Gravedigger and necromancer. Not only is Yorick Redesign extremely fun and characteristic - being better themetically (improving on readability aswell), he also provides tons of counterplay; you can do a lot to stop the Gravedigger, this really creates a lot of depth and possibilities Yorick has with his new kit.

-Ziggs, the Hexplosive Expert
Nit-pick champion, Ziggs already does what a dude with bombs should do, however ItemsGuy lay a bit more emphasis on his minefield aswell as his ult, adding more depth to it and making it more destructive (as you'd expect as the ultimate destructive explosion in the game)

Redesign Ziggs has more depth while improving on readability along the way.

-Zyra, the Rise of Thorns

Already discussed here, please read this if you want a more detailed explanation - Zyra rather is the generic mage with the nature skin than the Ultimate Nature Mage she could have been.
Redesign Zyra - one of my favourite Redesigns - Zyra turns to an organic 'living' & caring mage, she turns the Field of Justice to her own garden. Taking care of your plants and growing them untill you can release them and migrate them back somewhere else into the earth !
This is just ROFLWTFBBQ. Must have.

REASONING BEHIND THE REDESIGNS OF SUPPORT CHAMPIONS:

The main things he wanted to do with supports is:

-Give way more influence/defined strength (Supports deserve to have this, the only reason they are seen as the 'lowest' impactfull characters/roles on their team because they are literally designed to be lame, Janna's current W and E for example, while her Q and R have HUGE impact on a game and really can define a good Janna player, with the Redesign Janna is all about displacement and speeding up her allies).

Blitzcrank currently is a good example of a support that has way more impact on a game, regardless of him being a good design or not, his presence in a game is way higher than let's say Soraka.

I specifically love the Morgana redesign, it's amazing and when I read it I want to play Support immediately.

-Remove "helplessness" (ie. you're **** without a teammate)
'Like, when people are playing support, I still want the enemy team to be wary of them and not just go "oh dw its just a support" like if you walked up to Soraka currently.'

-Make Supporting more fun and less of a sacrifice (While the Itemoverhaul made supporting alot more fun IMO, a few redesigns here could make them even more fun, more impactful, such as the Taric redesign, fitting up more to his character: Huge presence due to new E.
Long story short: He tried to make supports more relevant, more impactful, more of a defined role in a team rather than playing the babysitter.
DotA is well-known of the huge influence/impact of support heroes yet support champions in League tend to be less impactful (thank god Thresh is not like this at all) because most of them are literally designed to be lame - designed to babysit people.

REASONING/EXPLANATION BEHIND REMOVING AND REPLACING ABILITIES

If they are cool just not fitting the character he adds the ability to entire new champion, for example Graves's smokescreen fitting a 'Full Smoke Champion' better.
Or he'd switch abilities around: Nami's Passive more appropriate for Janna, current Fiora ult more appropriate for Master Yi and so forth.

If the abilities weren't that unique/outstandingly cool and didn't make sense he basically completely got rid of it: Karthus as a Deathsinger having his Q pop like throwing/exploding skittles: Removed entirely and his entire kit replaced with something that makes a unique defined playstyle appropriate to a 'Deathsinger' playstyle/character/theme.

Or Malphite Q: Moving magical rock that slows ??? His entire Q, W, E and passive replaced with a kit that make more sense and matches the CC he has now plus an entire new passive making Malphite more of an unstoppable constantly moving force of stone.

What did ItemsGuy do with other champions ?

Simply make them more appropriate to their theme, defining their playstyle according to this theme, increasing depth/skill cap of champions most of the time while trying to make the abilities sync well together for a very understandable and usable kit.

How do I leave appropriate feedback ? + Disclaimer: I hope that people realize that these Redesigns aren't nessecarily there to make the champion specefically more fun for YOU. I have struggled with this aswell as soon as I red all of ItemsGuy's redesigns, I know I'd probably like some champions less than I do now, this does not mean the current state of those champions are fine/better compared to the Redesign.

All of the characters/champions I like currently better than the Redesigns is insignificant: Their theme's could be more specific, their kits more unified, their character/over-all feel could be more specific, it's for the best that these champions get changes.

And yet again what of it ? I used to play Kennen alot yet I don't know if I'd like him less or more than ItemsGuy's redesign (eventhough his Redesign would make Kennen more readable and more specific), yet I'd enjoy something like Leblanc, Malphite, Morgana and Zyra WAY more !

This is really what I want to point out, when leaving feedback concerning those redesigns: Please tell us how the current kit fits the theme better than the Redesign would capture and don't use lore as an excuse, as we've dismantled that and have proven how this is a stupid approach - a 'piss-poor argument'.

Also, please take a look at other champions aswell, you might not like champion X as much as you would compared to their current state, but you might like champion Y, Z, A, B, C better than ever !

If you want to leave a suggestion to make a champion more unified/themetically better with fitting changes you are very welcome to do so ! For example: ItemsGuy left Janna's passive as the current passive, I pointed out that adding Nami's passive to Janna redesign would not only make her cooler (actually getting to speed up allies yourself is cool) but also makes sense: Speeding up your allies blowing the wind on their feet. :)

Original Champion Designs of ItemsGuy

This dude has made champions of his own aswell, obviously, see here the link to it (note: this includes some placeholders to be on there aswell, so those might not be 100% original):

http://lolchampdesigns.tumblr.com/

ItemsGuy 01-17-2013 02:54 PM

(Delete Later)

Peri, mind linking to the lolchampdesigns blogspot instead/as well? That's where most of the designs will be, because I can just post them there without doing the concept art first.


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