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-   -   @Tryndamere @Ryze @Zileas @Morello @Kitae Lore Writer Replacement (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3011587)

Eserine 01-16-2013 10:43 PM

@Tryndamere @Ryze @Zileas @Morello @Kitae Lore Writer Replacement
 
@IronStylus, @Pendragon, @Guinsoo, @Volty, @Xypherous, @CertainlyT, @Ezreal, @Gypsylord, @Harrow, etc.


I formally request that all current lore projects be halted from release or progress, the lore team be dismissed from their positions (including the television writers recently acquired), and that Henrik Fahraeus and Chris King from Paradox Interactive be headhunted to begin a totally new Riot lore team with a different format from what is very soon planned to be introduced.

Here (from 37:00 particularly) is why:

http://thegamedesignroundtable.com/2...-with-paradox/

Simulating an entire world (or universe) requires high-level understanding of the forces of intelligent beings through a constructed history, a "sociological imagination", and the past projects of these designers in ancient and medieval settings have uniquely prepared them for the challenge of creating Runeterra in a way that the current lore team is not prepared for or capable of achieving. Also while Fahraeus and King demonstrate the ability to avoid player "rabbit holes" of tunnel vision, they equally demonstrate the incredibly important design characteristic of learning and accurately assessing player criticism (discussed in the final twenty minutes of episode #3 of the Game Design Round Table podcast).

I have hosted two extensive sequential conversations with players on the current state of the lore's problems and the unwillingness of the lore team to engage with player concerns: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2813286

but in doing this I have avoided enumerating the increasing discrepancies I and many players see within the new lore "not making sense"- however I am willing to more fully illustrate this effect to prove that I am not simply a rambling lunatic, inviting into the thread parties I know to be involved with Vi, Thresh, or some relevant high-level decision making within Riot, to either weigh my arguments, pass them on, or defend themselves or their philosophies either in this thread or to others within the company.

After the segment within the dotted lines, where I will belabor story problems, I will attempt to anticipate a few objections to my proposal:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>The Lore Problems with Thresh<<<

Concisely, there has been no articulation to players what is happening when Mordekaiser uses his ultimate ability on Thresh on the fields of justice to summon a ghost-ghost. The afterlife seems to have no rules at all in fact, Thresh was mean in life, and then after being killed he began an undeath immediately. Why does Warwick not have a ghost like Thresh when killed in the game in that case, Or even Mistletoe Leblanc who also has a magical lantern and attacks people with chains and cages? Was Thresh killed while infected with the magical undeath algae-plague that the Twisted Treeline alters hint at? Wouldn't he become a lich or ghoul in that case like the other undead champions?

Something clearly must set Thresh apart in that case. Was contact with the bodily fluids of multiple infected prisoners altering his unlife according to the sequence of contact? If that were true instances where Talon or Katarina killed Yorick or Elise would likely alter their physical state during battle or death on the field.

Is the algae unlife plague virus triggered differently according to how much guilt or fear a person feels before they die, physiologically altering their transformation process to decide what form they will take? Surely again champions on the field coming into contact with undead champions (especially Trundle or Cho'Gath) may later die in the game in fear or guilt, yet they have no Thresh-mode (except temporarily Karthus for some reason, but only in a stationary sense).

Was Mordekaiser one of the prisoners who killed Thresh? Wouldn't Thresh disappear whenever Mordekaiser dies in battle then? Wouldn't Thresh answer to Mordekaiser's commands on the field even if on the opposing team even with a summoner merged with his mind? As what is said to be "the oldest undead" could anyone create a shade that lasts longer than Mordekaiser's short-duration creations, he the collector of dread knowledge and translationally 'the death king', an unstoppable power upon the land?

Perhaps the lantern is a magical artifact that allows one of Mordekaiser's creations a degree of permanence and autonomy. CertainlyT named it in the forums as the signature feature of Thresh, yet the players are not told anything about why Thresh has this lantern, where it came from, or why the lantern would act any differently than Jax's lantern, or Leblanc's lantern, or Yorick's lantern, or Wriggle's lantern, or Grez's Spectral Lantern any champion could buy that does not act as any sort of bargain-bus phylactery. Did the lantern torture many other lanterns with chains during its life? Surely a summoner merged with Mordekaiser would know what this "extra-special, totally-not-oversaturated magical lantern" functioned as and would use it with Mordekaiser's powers to destroy an opposing Thresh and create a permanent new shade to destroy the enemy nexus in a vital battle if Mordekaiser had experience with it.

... but then maybe there is an inherent genetic predisposition to interact differently with the plague according to one's lineage and genome, in fact it is never stated that Thresh once belonged to the human-like species of most the other heroes, perhaps he is a dead pig-monster, and pig-monsters become permashades and badger-monsters become Yoricks after being infected and reaching the proper threshold of contamination somehow. On the other hand the algae is known to transcend species in many cases. If one is bitten by a convention zombie in a horror film one becomes a zombie, but if one is bitten by a zombie spider with the algae unlife virus in LoL the venom does not transform one into a zombie, or a spider, or a zombie spider, but one instead becomes a were-zombie-spider, optionally retaining many of one's original racial characteristics in at-will shapeshifting. Amumu is an undead mummy-Yordle but he remains a Yordle.

What separates Thresh initially from the other souls in his lantern? "Life force"? Whatever energy it is, it is restored with life-steal items or the nexus, so if one were to combine lifestealing or nexus energy with his lantern you could suddenly have an army of dozens (or thousands?) of champions right? How is Thresh even collecting anything if the nexus restores souls back to life on the pad? Is he backing them up with an external soul hard-drive? Isn't that just summoning magic? Why doesn't he use his knowledge merged with summoners to simply summon champions for his ultimate plan?

So essentially without formal rules (as D&D has, where many of these creatures were originally presented in a better operational framework that could easily have been adapted to summoning magic or MOBA requirements much more efficiently than just creating a kluge), one is left with a mess, and players are sadly smart enough to pick up on this even if they don't really care about the lore that much, or the league or summoners being acknowledged as existing by Kitae. In a new format one will likely have even more open questions raised and no underlying system will be present to give coherence to the competing elements of motivation or magic or the environment, where instead with more experienced writers this could all be accounted for with little effort (including in not-yet-arrived Thresh lore AMA which is certain to contain glaring errors in logic and further "readability" issues).

>>>The Lore Problems with Vi<<<

Many champion designers take an active interest in the lore of their champions to make sure that the envisioned thematic and experiential elements they want are carried forward properly, however the advice or collaborative effort they receive can only be proportional to their experience and the ability of their lore-colleagues and fellow designers to fit such ideas into the gameworld. The "fit" is growing progressively worse, and the lore specialists are entirely to blame for this.

Vi is a fierce fighter determined to punch criminals in the face. Why would she punch Lulu, Annie, or Amumu in the face? At one time the answer might have been "to serve the ultimate interests of Piltover and the dying Piltovians orphan children who need the medical supplies and education bought by an increased Piltover socioeconomic positioning in the world and securitization of the homeland", or "she was created as part of a covert Piltover supersoldier project at the League's beginning 20 years ago similar to works like Cameron's Dark Angel, The Hitman series, Elfen Lied, etc." However, now Kitae has "de-emphasized" the League's existence, a Piltoverian sovereignty (where presumably Piltover has an active military to defend its borders) is being upheld solely by a street vigilante, a police chief, Yordles with extreme loyalties to Bandle City, an explorer who constantly exposes himself to unresearched mysterious magical artifacts, and an emotional unstable deputy police officer with a criminal history

who has no formal training
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33284967)
I think she was a scrappy little brawler as a kid. She would've had to fight off other kids to keep herself safe on the streets, so punching wasn't totally new to her when she created the gauntlets. She's never really been a person who's been concerned with perfecting her punching technique, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33289059)
-
- Like I've said, she doesn't put much thought into "technique", but she has certainly learned a thing or two through the countless fights she's been in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33318890)
- She would think that Darius takes himself waaaaaayyyyyyy too seriously, though she'd appreciate his no-nonsense approach to his problems. Still, she'd have a hard time getting past the fact that he's killed a ton of people...Vi's not a military sort of person.

uh...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33308029)
Quote:

Originally Posted by MiaoLong (Hozzászólás 33285566)
Here's another good one-- how does she feel about punching an 8 year old girl's guts out.
(Annie)
(Punched so hard, a shockwave goes through her that kills an Armored Bear in the brush behind her)
(OH GOD THE GUTS WHY)
(WHY DID SHE HAVE TO EAT BEFORE FIGHTING ON SUMMONERS RIFT)

I dunno, I think I must've killed 1000+ Annie Bots while developing her and she didn't seem to bat an eyelid.

uh...
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33308447)
- Nah...I don't think she could work with Caitlyn if she was liable to kill people. Caitlyn's all about detainment and reform.

who has no interest in existential threats to the world or familiarity with potential enemies she may encounter
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33287739)
She just doesn't really see these epic threats as part of her world...she might well take a "not my problem" attitude until she really felt like she had to do something, at which point she would just punch her way through it or die trying.

who, while proud of Piltover, may as well live in Zaun if biotechnology struck her fancy
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33285159)
- Yeah, I think Vi is prouder of being from Piltover than she'd like to admit. I think sometimes the worst Piltover criminals might sometimes get kit from Zaun that Vi hates dealing with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33318890)
If Vi was interested in bio-technology, she'd have moved to Zaun, but I think she sees Viktor as someone who's close to the line of losing his humanity.

or whatever country she might be told she came from by agents of other city-states:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33289059)
- Nope, no memory. As far back as she can remember she was on the streets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33308447)
- Caitlyn probably asked her to as part of the job, but it's also a pretty great place to brawl without having to hold back. She might also wonder whether or not other champions might know something about her origin, but she might've just put all of that behind her just now.

If Summoner's are to be asked to fight for Piltover (which given the PILT prefix on test-players in a recent patch preview video might become a more important distinction), why would they wish to make the effort when Piltover, in the 20 years of preparation they've had since the League began, has made seemingly no effort in finding reliable, quality champions to defend their interests with an advanced knowledge of fighting techniques or educational preparation for battle? If this objection could be addressed through adding future champions why would Piltover risk using Vi?

Also why, in "The City of Progress" have no other researchers been brought forward to study and improve the gauntlet or hammer designs or prepare ANY weapons for their fighters so far? Why have the gauntlets or hammer not been replicated for other champions like Ezreal to use in conjunction with his gauntlet? Why, if Piltover invented Master Yi's Goggles, does Vi not wear a pair?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33308447)
- HEXTECH. Seriously though, the pack on her back provides power and braces the weight of the gauntlets. It's like powered armor for just the hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33285159)
- Piltover's technology isn't easily mass produced. Even if it could be, I don't think Vi would want to run into a crime ring outfitted with gauntlets just like hers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33308849)
1) I'm not an artist, not gonna speak to that kinda style decision, but I'm happy in the knowledge that Science * Magic = Explanation.

Not working out how many Hex crystal types there are, their conferred abilities and limitations when combined with different spells or technologies, and their rarity and geological deposit locations or the parties with access to each type over time is incredibly sloppy work.

If Vi is willing to repeatedly die and risk her sanity and soul (or becoming a were-were-zombie-spider-spider) for a cause the player isn't told of wouldn't this cause also be worth allowing the design of her gauntlets to be copied to wholesome parties within her home country?

"Science * Magic = Explanation" is not a sufficient qualification in cases where the same "Science * Magic" can hold the potential to alter every aspect of the gameworld's interplay, and the very nature of science is to deconstruct -> replicate -> control features of one's environment just as Zilean's chronomagic was seized upon in past lore to solve problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrow (Hozzászólás 33308849)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tpyo (Hozzászólás 33287697)
It looks like she wears something like a skin tight body suit over a frilly pink dress .... yet she has 7 visible belts. If she was once a thief, does this mean she rummaged through ezreal's dresser?

iono, belts are cool.

"iono" is not really acceptable. Instead of playtesting Vi against Annie over 1000 times Harrow should have been compiling the fashion history of Piltover, listing the different boutiques in the central city and researching their inventories, or detailing past raids where Vi took belts off of her opponents or romantic partners to look more like her favorite ingénue, or cataloging belt charm-spells. Vi probably knows why Vi likes belts in a more comprehensive summary, and it can't simply be left to the player to imagine if more and more characters adopt the practice noticeably and constantly.

Likewise where players are being ignored for asking why the Steampunk theme is being abandoned for Piltover in favor of Gibsonian Cyberpunk (which ostensibly is because the Steampunk movement wasn't strong enough to sustain a Justin Beiber video without dying), no preparation was made to frame this progression through lore developments and now these players are being shunned in the lore forum, which is not a good way to treat players who simply want to better understand the game.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTIONS:

1. We were about to release a new lore format! Must players really wait even longer for lore?

You must do what is in the ultimate best interest for the player, and an awful framework that was designed by Kitae "in the style of the WWE" where summoners lose a sense of immersion from a fractured and careless scaffolding of plots and settings built to suit individual champion designs month-to-month without regard for previous ideas, instead of allowing stories for champions to be grown 'organically' from a detailed secret travelogue/textbook of Runeterra informed by the fandoms, history, or art of realms of piracy, ninjas, cyberpunk, medieval castles, etc. is not in the best interest of players at all.

2. We actually already tried to headhunt Fahraeus and King specifically, and many just like them!

Try harder. Throw in some Teemo hats.

3. What about http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...90C0CI20130113 ?

While an appreciably difficult conflict of motive, there will very likely be many opportunities for Riot to help qualified and capable women enter high-level positions in the videogame industry in the future without ruining the entire game.


NOTES:

* I would ask the forum moderators not to move this thread to the Lore Forum where it will be much less visible.
* This thread is addressed specifically to members of Riot and a TL;DR will not be included for players with short attention spans.
* Thank you for your time
*
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eserine (Hozzászólás 33641502)
Despite my direct request to the General Discussion forum moderators in the original post for this thread not to be moved to the lore section, it has just been moved to the lore section.

This thread is now abandoned. Goodbye.


dogbiter 01-16-2013 10:45 PM

i wonder if babaganoosh is still alive

Flying Eggplant 01-16-2013 11:01 PM

We have a writing staff? I just assumed after we scrapped JoJ that Riot had just fired all their writers and had their programmers do it in their free time.

Maelthorn 01-16-2013 11:03 PM

Quote:

to prove that I am not simply a rambling lunatic
Already passed that point, bud.

Henry Plainview 01-16-2013 11:08 PM

I stopped reading after the part where you were complaining about Mordekaiser ulting Thresh. You need to chill the **** out.

Eserine 01-16-2013 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogbiter (Hozzászólás 33571978)
i wonder if babaganoosh is still alive

I read a forum rumor once that he was let-go due to gross misconduct, so unfortunately he may never be eligible to return, but there are still better candidates to be had I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiarac (Hozzászólás 33572163)
tldr?

Nope, sorry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Eggplant (Hozzászólás 33572275)
We have a writing staff? I just assumed after we scrapped JoJ that Riot had just fired all their writers and had their programmers do it in their free time.

Your intuitions seem correct- playtesting and holding meetings and "mandatory match engagements" can eat up a great deal of productivity.

Worstcase 01-16-2013 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eserine (Hozzászólás 33571942)
Why does Warwick not have a ghost like Thresh when killed in the game in that case,

Stopped right here because I know where you're going with this and I really don't care what you have to say at that point. Largely because you're just being downright rediculous.

Flying Eggplant 01-16-2013 11:14 PM

I'm sympathetic insofar as the fact that lore has gotten progressively worse as we've gone on (Elise's lore has nothing to do with the League at all?)

I'm not touching the 6 paragraphs on how Mordekaiser should interact with Thresh though.

Henry Plainview 01-16-2013 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flying Eggplant (Hozzászólás 33572506)
I'm sympathetic insofar as the fact that lore has gotten progressively worse as we've gone on (Elise's lore has nothing to do with the League at all?)

I'm not touching the 6 paragraphs on how Mordekaiser should interact with Thresh though.

I get the feeling the OP cares a lot about comic book continuity.

Eserine 01-16-2013 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maelthorn (Hozzászólás 33572314)
Already passed that point, bud.

Many problems, one simple answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henry Plainview (Hozzászólás 33572377)
I stopped reading after the part where you were complaining about Mordekaiser ulting Thresh. You need to chill the **** out.

Your chill-outs are merely the treacherous designs of the international ghost-ghost agenda! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worstcase (Hozzászólás 33572418)
Stopped right here because I know where you're going with this and I really don't care what you have to say at that point. Largely because you're just being downright rediculous.

When faced with a rediculous situation I must face redicule to red the game of toxic rids!


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