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-   -   Eve Change Clearly Violates Game Design Anti-Patterns (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3006400)

MrButtermancer 01-15-2013 09:29 PM

Eve Change Clearly Violates Game Design Anti-Patterns
 
I'm not going to waste your time, so:

Here is the quote from Zileas:

"Unclear Optimization
This is a more subtle one. when players KNOW they've used a spell optimally, they feel really good. An example is disintegrate on Annie. When you kill a target and get the mana back, you know that you used it optimally, and this makes the game more fun. On the other hand, some mechanics are so convoluted, or have so many contrary effects, that it is not possible to 'off the cuff' analyze if you played optimally, so you tend not to be satisfied. A good example of this is Proudmoore's ult in DOTA where he drops a ship. The ship hits the target a bit in the future, dealing a bunch of damage and some stun to enemies. Allies on the other hand get damage resistance and bonus move speed, but damage mitigated comes up later. Very complicated! And almost impossible to know if you have used it optimally -- do you really want your squishies getting into the AOE? Maybe! Maybe not... It's really hard to know that you've used this skill optimally and feel that you made a 'clutch' play, because it's so hard to tell, and there are so many considerations you have to make. On the other hand, with Ashe's skill shot, if you hit the guy who was weak and running, you know you did it right... You also know you did it right if you slowed their entire team... Ditto on Ezreal's skill shot."

And here's the skill change:
Agony's Embrace
Damage changed to 15/20/25% of the target's current health from 15/20/25% of their max health
Cooldown increased to 150/120/90 seconds from 120/90/60
Cast range reduced to 650 from 800

Riot obviously thought Agony's Embrace was not in the right place. That's fine. Numbers can be adjusted. But I argue that they clearly entered the realm of what they'd consider Game Design Anti-Patterns and here's why: Agony's Embrace used to be damage optimal at any point of a combo, and CC optimal after your opponent has Flashed (you slow them down so you can catch up). It has been changed to be damage optimal ONLY as an opening move (% current health, you are PUNISHED for using it when your opponent is low and it CANNOT finish off an opponent. As Eve is a stealth champion, if you are playing well, your opening move is very early in your opponent's possible awareness of you. This means that they are likely to flash after you've used it, if you used it damage-optimally. CC optimal, however, remains after the Flash.

Understanding this, the contradiction in utility should be obvious. If you initiate with Agony's Embrace, you deal the most damage, but your opponent will Flash, and you will not have that slow any longer. If you hold Agony's Embrace to help counter the inevitable Flash, you will suffer damage proportional to the amount of damage you dealt while holding the CC. This CLEARLY falls under "contrary effects" and dissatisfaction from not being able to use the ability optimally.

I am not opposing a nerf to the old manifestation of the ability. I am pointing out that the change made is intrinsically problematic.

A few points: Flash CD is roughly once per teamfight in active games. Talon. Shaco. Akali. These assassins (and many others) have mechanics that can mitigate a Flash. For Eve, that's W and R. Assassins benefit from this. It's a defining aspect of the role. You can Flash to counter Flash, but for an assassin, that's not ideal. Eve is given a devil's choice in her current "ultimate," which I used to be able to honestly type without using quotation marks.

Ferr3t 01-15-2013 09:36 PM

Not really. They explicitly want it to be an opening move for Eve. The slow keeps them from running away when your entire team jumps on them while they're all heavily wounded, and you as Eve get to run around the outside of the fight throwing in hate spikes and picking off stragglers and runners like the assassin you are, and bear in mind that she does have a movespeed buff of her own to counteract people who try to flash out.

Mysterage 01-15-2013 09:36 PM

Agreed. I must be the only one that still thinks Eve is total trash, and a garbage champ now. If the ultimate is too strong (I personally think it blows) fine, go ahead and increase the cooldown. If it's STILL too strong, increase it some more, or make it cost more mana. But don't change the inherent, awesome mechanics for it. This just confuses people, and as stated above, is counter productive to good game design.

MrButtermancer 01-15-2013 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butternubs (Hozzászólás 33521308)
Not really. They explicitly want it to be an opening move for Eve. The slow keeps them from running away when your entire team jumps on them while they're all heavily wounded, and you as Eve get to run around the outside of the fight throwing in hate spikes and picking off stragglers and runners like the assassin you are, and bear in mind that she does have a movespeed buff of her own to counteract people who try to flash out.

Being slowed does not prevent the Flash and the movespeed duration is not long enough to counteract it. Please read and think before you post.

FreeGothitelle 01-15-2013 09:57 PM

The whole "We want eve to use it as an initiation" thing is ridiculous anyway.

She's an assassin designed to pick off low health targets...not a tanky initiator, like wtf riot.

Normally she waits until most cc is blown, dfgs a high priority target and ults as many people as possible, now she's being punished for waiting for an opportunity to attack that won't just get her bursted down in an instant.

There's no right way to use it, use it to initiate and you'll die, wait until after the fight's started and you'll deal way less damage.
But I guess it's ok because now with a dreadful cooldown it will never actually be up to use.....

catastrophicSkil 01-15-2013 10:02 PM

They will probably buff the AP ratio to make up for this in the future i dont think they will go back to 50 ap per% but maybe 75 this way it will give players more time to use the ult or give it some base damage to allow it to execute but only if the champion is extremely low

Tristyric 01-15-2013 10:11 PM

Don't really ever post in the forums but I have to agree with you here. The nerf to her Ult is a bit harsh by any standard. All the other changes seemed completely reasonable but the change from max health to current health is a real blow. I believe this will make eve the only Assassin with an offensive ult that is unable to kill an enemy. It will make her one of two assassin champions whose ults cannot kill period (Poppy and TF being the others if i recall correctly). Sure they don't want it used so much as an execute but come on...anyone standing around under a turret with sub 25% health is asking for it anyway.

Overall though I think its a manageable change which at best may force Eve roamers to trade in their Boots of mobility for Boots of swiftness + Alacrity to avoid those awkward and occasional "Nailed you with the edge of my ult but can't get you into hate spike range." Scenario's. Some might want to rush a Lichbane after your DFG to make sure your ravage nuke takes advantage of that 20% damage buff that will be more wasteful if used in conjunction with your ult. Since I already used a semi-standard build for Eve myself I'll give this Nerf a try before raging out and I certainly won't stop enjoying Eve play. Still, Flat damage nuke would have been better then a current health nuke IMO.

Acanthus 01-15-2013 10:26 PM

I agree with the premise of the thread. Alternatively, they could give it a base damage so you can use it to burst someone low. But I really think max damage was a better way to go.

Qsario 01-15-2013 11:06 PM

> Violates Game Design Anti-Patterns

I don't think this means what you think this means.

Akkito 01-15-2013 11:09 PM

This Eve nerf is way to hard, she need some nerfing but this makes her a trash champ with a "only viable in certain situations" ult.


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