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-   -   @Riot -ARAM Changes (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=3006278)

TheBirdOfPrey 01-15-2013 07:56 PM

@Riot -ARAM Changes
 
First off, Thanks you for finally making arams a dedicated game mode- Aside from the obvious want for an aram queue, I would like to discuss and give my thoughts on how to improve it even further

-Champions-
Overall some champions are going to be bad on this map, others are oging to generally be good- It is a fact and perfect balance can't and will never be achieved- Any hopes of this are highly over-optimistic

HOWEVER

There are a disticnt list of champions that are frankly bad on the map

Namely- Rammus Garen Renekton Nasus Trundle Volibear Irelia Udyr Tryndamere Warwick Shyvana Sion(he's kinda bad in general) Sejuani Leona and Riven.

These are what i would label problem chamions, It isn't that they are underpowered(they are for the map but that is more a problem of their kit and not numbers) but the larger issue that they are boring and unfun to play.

I go into an aram game as garen for example, for the first few minutes of the game i am a suicidal beyblade with the utlity to stop fiddle drain with Q- yay? That doesnt sound fun at all. Playing full tank i literally run around doing not much but sniping kills with my ult all game. If you go more damage leaning- All you do is snipe kills with ult and then die faster.

--I'm sorry but i don't have a suggestion to fix this without drastically altering a champions kit and their play pattern from the way it is currently.




-Summoner Spells-
Heal-The reduced healing on this map makes heal feel bad overall- Why use a summoner spell slot when it is reduced by 20% across the board when i can use another that isn't nerfed simply by the map i'm playing on

Ghost- Yay i run faster? I could pop this to dodge a skillshot i guess, or maybe chase an opponent down the lane. But using this over flash is a big no no imo- Flash is instant and is MUCH more useful then ghost.

Clarity- Why is this a summoner spell. Heal i can understand, It provides a heal to your team, something that you might not be able to get otherwise(crucible aside)- But clarity? Many many items give mana regen, you get some for free if you use mana anyways. I would 100% rather someones go AA/Seraphs over wasting this in their summoner slot. YOU GET FREE INCREASED MANA REGEN ANYWAYS. This spell is the largest noob trap in aram and needs to be changed/removed and replaced imo.

-Items-

Where do i begin- The items need an overhaul much likes dominion got its own set of items-

Avarice blade- I get gold for cs, on a map where the optimal way to play is a 5 man support+ad lane- Feed adc the cs so they get big and carry you with items. Now unless you find a remarkably open to ideas group of people on your games, this doesnt happen except in a full premade. And so buying this item is a waste. Especially when people don't want to upgrade it becuase they "want the most of the g/10" *facepalm*-LARGE NOOB TRAP

Morellonomicon- I am of the opinion that this item does not have a real niche. The fake niche is you are against a team where you need healing reduc and are AP, except you shouldnt use it if you have ignite and should learn to ignite correctly, and if you are AP you should take ignite. Oh and you also should have mana, further reducing hte number of people who should ever buy this item to exactly zero- LARGE NOOB TRAP

Dorans- The items for early game- Oh wait, early game goes faster because you skip 2 levels, and even faster because you get xp faster- and oh why would you waste your gold on these items that do little to nothing when the items you have matter.- LARGE NOOB TRAP

Catalyst- You skip 2 levels anyways- If building into roa- Don't (unless you are a very specific champ like ryze or singed) The game wont last long enough to be worth it to build stacks- IF building into BV- Iffy, BV imo needs a change where the base shield recharges once every 75 sec or so(numbers can change) and will block one spell like it currently does. However if the shield is on CD and you are hit by another spell, the cooldown is reduced by 5 seconds or something, and the effect can occur only once every 10 sec. -RoA is usually a noob trap. BV is just ok.

Boots Of Mobility- Just remove these- yay i can run into the nexus faster? The map you are always in combat on.-THE VERY DEFINITION OF A NOOB TRAP



-Riot bait Below-
Xypherous Item Overhaul Change season 3 Nome Patch

FDru 01-15-2013 08:55 PM

Wow, it's not often I disagree with just about everything someone posts.

Quote:

--I'm sorry but i don't have a suggestion to fix this without drastically altering a champions kit and their play pattern from the way it is currently.
Nothing needs to be done here, actually. Fun is subjective and playing Garen and running into a team and hitting E and maybe gibbing a carry while dying might be enjoyable for someone. If you don't like needing to play conservatively with some champs, then don't play ARAM I guess.

Quote:

-Summoner Spells-
Heal-The reduced healing on this map makes heal feel bad overall- Why use a summoner spell slot when it is reduced by 20% across the board when i can use another that isn't nerfed simply by the map i'm playing on
Heal is really good despite the heal reduction aura.

Quote:

Ghost- Yay i run faster? I could pop this to dodge a skillshot i guess, or maybe chase an opponent down the lane. But using this over flash is a big no no imo- Flash is instant and is MUCH more useful then ghost.
Ghost is for tanky melee champs. Flash is for squishies.

Quote:

Clarity- Why is this a summoner spell. Heal i can understand, It provides a heal to your team, something that you might not be able to get otherwise(crucible aside)- But clarity? Many many items give mana regen, you get some for free if you use mana anyways. I would 100% rather someones go AA/Seraphs over wasting this in their summoner slot. YOU GET FREE INCREASED MANA REGEN ANYWAYS. This spell is the largest noob trap in aram and needs to be changed/removed and replaced imo.
Clarity is around for new players who lack runes and masteries. It's still not a bad support spell for healers. Sona with Clarity could never need to return to base ever.

Quote:

Avarice blade- I get gold for cs, on a map where the optimal way to play is a 5 man support+ad lane- Feed adc the cs so they get big and carry you with items. Now unless you find a remarkably open to ideas group of people on your games, this doesnt happen except in a full premade. And so buying this item is a waste. Especially when people don't want to upgrade it becuase they "want the most of the g/10" *facepalm*-LARGE NOOB TRAP
You shouldn't have trouble CSing as a carry. Just don't buy it if your team has a bunch of AOE casters who are going to be nuking all of the minions (but if you aren't getting farm as a carry you are screwed anyway).

Quote:

Morellonomicon- I am of the opinion that this item does not have a real niche. The fake niche is you are against a team where you need healing reduc and are AP, except you shouldnt use it if you have ignite and should learn to ignite correctly, and if you are AP you should take ignite. Oh and you also should have mana, further reducing hte number of people who should ever buy this item to exactly zero- LARGE NOOB TRAP
It doesn't have a niche because it's a universally good item. Every stat on it is extremely good for casters and the passive is very useful (even if it's not mindlessly applied all the time like Executioner's Calling). This + 1 other CDR item will CDR cap any champ and CDR is godly in Proving Grounds.

Quote:

Dorans- The items for early game- Oh wait, early game goes faster because you skip 2 levels, and even faster because you get xp faster- and oh why would you waste your gold on these items that do little to nothing when the items you have matter.- LARGE NOOB TRAP
You take Doran's when you need the HP (which means some carries and mages and newer players). They are fine, and most definitely not a "noob trap". I would tell "noobs" to get this item so they don't die right out of the gate but can still contribute some damage.

Quote:

Catalyst- You skip 2 levels anyways- If building into roa- Don't (unless you are a very specific champ like ryze or singed) The game wont last long enough to be worth it to build stacks- IF building into BV- Iffy, BV imo needs a change where the base shield recharges once every 75 sec or so(numbers can change) and will block one spell like it currently does. However if the shield is on CD and you are hit by another spell, the cooldown is reduced by 5 seconds or something, and the effect can occur only once every 10 sec. -RoA is usually a noob trap. BV is just ok.
RoA is great for many champs, and I see no reason to complain about catalyst as long as the champ buying it has mana. I would personally take Chalice but I'd be fine with a newer player building RoA for more survivability.

Quote:

Boots Of Mobility- Just remove these- yay i can run into the nexus faster? The map you are always in combat on.-THE VERY DEFINITION OF A NOOB TRAP
Mobility boots are good for tanks and bruisers with no gap closers who need extra MS just to reach the enemy team. I wouldn't call them optimal but they have a place.

Basically, you're totally wrong about everything and I hereby revoke your permission to use the term "noob trap".

innervation 01-15-2013 09:27 PM

Yeah...gonna go with the guy above me - you're off base here OP.

I'll add too that flash is great for initiate reliant champions like alistar and fiddlesticks, but for many champions like vlad, it lets them consistently stay in range for q+e multiple times as opposed to just having one single gap closer / escape.

SwaggerJ 01-16-2013 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBirdOfPrey (Hozzászólás 33519993)
-Champions-
Overall some champions are going to be bad on this map, others are oging to generally be good- It is a fact and perfect balance can't and will never be achieved- Any hopes of this are highly over-optimistic

HOWEVER

There are a disticnt list of champions that are frankly bad on the map

Namely- Rammus Garen Renekton Nasus Trundle Volibear Irelia Udyr Tryndamere Warwick Shyvana Sion(he's kinda bad in general) Sejuani Leona and Riven.

Just gonna touch on this since the other points have been touched on in posts above mine. Champions are NOT going to be balanced strictly because of ARAM, so unless they need balancing for SR, it just won't happen. But, with that being said, I have to disagree with most of the champs you listed.

The problem people have is that they try to play champs in ARAM the same way they do on SR and fail miserably. That works on some champs and doesn't work on others. The key to using those champs that have NO poke or that are typically bad at early levels is to be a pseudo support char for a while. Most champs have some way of supporting the team with their abilities and you can always pick up aura items on any champ. Once a couple of towers fall and the poking drops off a bit, you can round out your build to be more effective.

To give some specific examples...

Rammus - prioritize your Taunt and pick off any enemies stupid enough to approach your tower. Hang around near whatever carries you have and use your powerball to protect them rather than trying to initiate fights. Don't do that until you've built up some tankiness later in the game

Nasus - It sounds odd, but Wither is amazing for ARAM. Prioritize Wither and then Spirit Fire. You won't have a chance to farm your Q anyway, so it's bottom priority in ARAM. Build tanky and soak up tons of damage for your team, especially with your ult up. He still won't be the greatest, but he's better for ARAM than people realize

Irelia - Play passive early while building damage. Pick off stragglers when you can. Build her for damage and watch her melt squishy champs. If they have no squishy champs, then you gotta build tanky and peel for your carries (if you have any). Her slow/stun and true damage always make her a threat

Warwick - I've had him a few times and he's actually been pretty decent for me. He's hard to kill and most champs have trouble running away from him. He's actually not bad versus poke teams since he can sustain pretty easily (especially once you grab SV). Once you hit 6, you can at least lock down a target for a few seconds while your team blows them up.

Sion - AP Sion is quite nasty on ARAM. His shield soaks up tons of damage and his Q is a nuke that stuns and the CD isn't that bad either. Stick to leveling Q and W until they are both maxed, as E and R are fairly useless for AP Sion. Until you can build some AP, just sit in the back while your stun is on cd and pop out just to stun out of position opponents. Once you get some AP, you can initiate with your shield. I typically build a Warmogs on him fairly early for some extra beefiness.

Sejuani - I got her twice, and both times we wrecked the other team pretty hard. Her kit makes it easy to chase fleeing opponents and her ult is great for initiating fights or following up a good initiation (Malphite ult, Zhonya's Crowstorm etc). Stack health and watch as the enemy team tries to focus you down while your team kills them. You'll probably want to throw an Aegis or Runic Bulwark in there at some point

Udyr - Yes, he's not great in ARAM, but he's got a stun (with built in Speed Boost), a shield and AoE damage. He's also getting a small survivability boost in the next patch, so he should get a little better. Build some auras for your team and stun anyone that gets close to your carries. Once you get some tankiness you may be able to initiate depending on their team comp.

The other champs I either haven't played in ARAM yet, or I agree with you, but honestly, I think the list of "terrible" champs is greatly exaggerated on the ARAM board. I've won games with Udyr and Sejuani on my team and I've lost games with Yi and Nidalee on my team.

Demonic Instinct 01-16-2013 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheBirdOfPrey (Hozzászólás 33519993)
There are a disticnt list of champions that are frankly bad on the map

Namely- Rammus Garen Renekton Nasus Trundle Volibear Irelia Udyr Tryndamere Warwick Shyvana Sion(he's kinda bad in general) Sejuani Leona and Riven.

No, just no. Nasus works wonderfully when played as AP. Garen's AOE spin damage + his CC reduction mean that he can do a lot of damage. Warwick becomes almost as unkillable as Mundo if built right, I myself have 1v3 as him in aram when the game stretched on long enough, and his scent for blood ensures that either the whole enemy team is always visible or at least the low guys hanging behind their tower. Sejuani works well as her damage is AOE and her ult is very powerful in the closed-quarters of PV. Renekton has great mobility, and his ult also deals a lot of damage to the enemy team. Sion's ult can heal his whole team if he builds AD, Leona has a Ranged AOE stun.

Literally every champion you listed has a strong point in aram. Yes, I do realize I did not list every one but I can assure you that they do. People seem to think: poke = gg, but I can honestly say that I have either carried or seen games being carried by many of the champions you listed above.

TheBirdOfPrey 01-16-2013 03:13 PM

my response-

Heal feels bad because of reduced healing-

But heal is a good spell

That's not the problem. the Healing debuff is most likely necessary for people to ever die- The problem is that this makes healing feel a bit less worthwhile. How would you like a permanent pseudo exhaust debuff that nerfs all your damage by 20%- Feels sucky right?

Champs like garen have to play safe- and not do much

So play them safe stop QQing

- The problem isn't that you should be able to go glass cannon garen and win. The problem is the optimal way to play is very very VERY boring. You don't do much at all. The optimal way to play the champion is to hardly play your champion. THATS BAD. I'm not suggesting these champions be changed or balanced around aram for all other modes. But they can be balanced for aram, much like the dominion or proving grounds aura. Melee champs gain 10% movement speed to make initiating instead of getting poked while your only option to stop the poke is engage but you are melee and they are ranged so they kite you or w/e Mayce 20% CC reduction for melee champs- Changes can be made with options available without making garen an ADC on SR.

Ghost is for tanky melee champs you say? Flash bear stun, Flash to get extra range on malphite ult, flash galio ults. (note: galio and malph can be played AP too)

Ghost feels lackluster, flash doesn't. and chasing doesnt really happen on this map with the limited area of mobility.

Sona shouldn't EVER need to die/return to base for mana when you can get free mana regen from the map, mana regen from your champion. Oh and you can start chalice of harmony etc. Clarity is a spell for people who mindlessly spam spells without knowing how to itemize their champion or preserve mana responsibly. It is a noob trap and by using it you are using a non-optimal way to play that prevents you from learning and improving- It is the cannon rush/Proxy 4 gate etc. of League.

Shouldnt have problem csing as a carry. The problem is even if i am an amazing mechanical player capable of last hitting every minion. Your team is GOING to consist of AP champs mindlessly AOEing everything. The problem is the only way avarice blade is useful is if they DONT do this. And the only time they DONT is in a premade team setting. THus purchasing avarice blade in a normal aram game BAD. Because half of the item isn't useful. And yet people see "hey this item gives me gold! ill get it" and not realise how wasteful and not-thought-through their purchase was. thinking they gain meaningful gold from the item they buy it. Noob trap.

Dorans are another handicap on new players. Instead of taching them to buy an item that wont scale into lategame and provides only a SLIGHT benefit in the short term. Teach them to dodge skillshots better, Teach them which rune choices allow them to itemize damage while still being robust and healthy enough to not die.

Mobility boots are good for tanks and bruisers with no gap closers who need extra MS just to reach the enemy team. I wouldn't call them optimal but they have a place.

Umm, Mobility boots provide zero benefit while in combat. It is wasted gold. You are literally 99% of hte time going to be in combat on the map, ESPECIALLY while initiating. If you need increased mobility to reach the enemy team. Either buy merc treads to reduce CC and slows so you close the gap faster, Or buy Swiftness boots. These are the largest noob trap in existence on this map.


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