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-   -   @Lyte There is simply no way to challenge unjustified punishment (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2976993)

Norwenna 01-06-2013 04:01 PM

@Lyte There is simply no way to challenge unjustified punishment
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyte
In fact, the system has higher standards than most medical practices or scientific studies which use false positive rates of 1 in 100. When outliers happen, we just need to fix them by hand. You are never going to create a system without outliers and there is no such thing as a perfect system. Removing the Tribunal and replacing it with something else, or just using Player Support does not remove outliers.

Hello lyte,
I read your statement on tribunal and i understand that no system is perfect though it is hell if you are the case of a false positive as you call them.
The problem is there is currently no channel of communication that riot offer to counter these situation.

The player support state :
Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueFire
Can my suspension be removed?
No. We do not remove or reduce suspensions that result from the Tribunal or Leaver Buster for any reason or under any circumstances.

My question is ... what can we do when it happens ?
There is simply no representative of riot answering any of the request on the tribunal forum.
What way do we have to correct the situation ?

Thank you

SchierkeWiking 01-06-2013 04:22 PM

This is one of the real and legitimate flaws of the Tribunal system.

For false pardons the issue is not that big since they'll most likely end up back in the Tribunal again. But wrong punishments do hurt some players, even if not that many.

The other day there was a guy on the ban forums showing how he was banned twice and I felt both punishments were undeserved (I'm a fairly strict judge, if that shows anything) and he just got downvoted to hell.

It would be ideal to have some sort of appeal system, not in the hands of the accused themselves as that would just mean every single punish would be challenged, but maybe a voting system where top judges could challenge a wrongful punishment and if enough judges vote to repeal, then the veredict is changed or sent to Riot for review.

But it would probably be too expensive to develop for Riot as so few players are actually affected. Kinda sad for those people TBH.

Ulanopo 01-06-2013 05:34 PM

You are correct that Customer Support cannot remove or reduce a Tribunal or LeaverBuster ban. However, Riot employees above that level can. For example, both Lyte and Pendragon have modified bans. False positives happen so rarely (0.5% for what Riot considers a false positive, which is a punishment that does not fit the crime, but a punishment is still warranted. The "real" false positive is significantly less common than that.) that they're able to manage them manually at a very high level.

Norwenna 01-06-2013 05:47 PM

yes but there is no way to contact them and get an answer.
i have seen and made many case on tribunal forum with no answer from anyone from riot. actually I'm even doubting they are being read.

The following threads are just trying to get an answers and there is simply nothing
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2929945
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2914962
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2972690
And my own threads ...

All we want is someone to look at our case and do something
but noone ever gets an answer on that forum and there is no way to communicate with the people you mentioned

And the support dont even read the request and redirect you to the right people. they just copy paste the usual stuff and close the request.

And even with a percentage of 0.5% if they are banning thousands and thousands of people ... that 0.5% is not 0 people. there is gonna be people who will need their case looked at and there is no place where it is done right now.
ive been trying for one whole month to get an answer from anyone from riot with no success ...

gnfnrf 01-07-2013 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norwenna (Hozzászólás 33220781)
yes but there is no way to contact them and get an answer.
i have seen and made many case on tribunal forum with no answer from anyone from riot. actually I'm even doubting they are being read.

The following threads are just trying to get an answers and there is simply nothing
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2929945
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2914962
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2972690
And my own threads ...

All we want is someone to look at our case and do something
but noone ever gets an answer on that forum and there is no way to communicate with the people you mentioned

And the support dont even read the request and redirect you to the right people. they just copy paste the usual stuff and close the request.

And even with a percentage of 0.5% if they are banning thousands and thousands of people ... that 0.5% is not 0 people. there is gonna be people who will need their case looked at and there is no place where it is done right now.
ive been trying for one whole month to get an answer from anyone from riot with no success ...

I'm not even sure that homebase PB&J Riot employees even can modify EUW Tribunal cases. I don't know how autonomous the EUW servers are.

But, in general, what you mention is a serious problem. If we take it as a given that a very small fraction of punished players were punished unjustly, and some fraction of them want to contest it, Riot should absolutely have a system to make things right for them.

However, they will be drowned out by the many many more people who are justly banned but don't realize it, or do but just want to argue. The Tribunal processes 36,000 cases a week (in NA), and punishes about 3/4 of them. No system can possibly give personalized and careful appeal attention to thousands of appeals a week to weed out the few genuine problem cases. Every minute spent explaining to someone why they were banned is a minute lost looking for the next guy who really deserves to have his punishment reversed. But if the system is semi-automated, sending a generic "We have reviewed the case and the judgment stands", nobody will listen to the negative response, and then we'd just need an appeal to the appeals process.

The problem needs a solution, but what is it?

Ghan04 01-07-2013 11:52 AM

I do from time to time review the Tribunal cases where the result was Pardon when I voted Punish, but I don't often do the reverse, mostly because it never happens. I think I've seen maybe one or two cases out of the 1300+ I've reviewed where I thought the case should have been Pardoned and it was actually Punished.

That being said, it would be cool if there were some way I could submit such cases (few though they may be) for a personal review by a Riot staff member. I think allowing some proven Tribunal voters to be able to submit cases for re-review might help cut down further on the small number of false positive cases that happen from time to time. Though perhaps Team Player Behavior already catches all of these instances....

FattyDrake 01-07-2013 07:28 PM

Perhaps a cost can be attached to making an appeal. If you want to appeal it you risk getting bumped to the next level if it's denied. For example, if someone gets a 7 day ban, appeals and loses, it's upgraded to a 2 week ban and the next is perma. If they have a 2 week ban, appeal and lose, it's perma. Don't know what cost would be involved for appealing a permaban tho, and that's the problem. Post bail? :)

Either way, there needs to be some risk involved for the person making the appeal, or else it's a very easily abused system that all it does is add more work for Riot with no reward for them or the majority of players.

Ghan04 01-07-2013 08:04 PM

That could work, but given the relatively low effort needed to create new accounts, I still feel it would be heavily abused. I just generally assume that users will try to find the worst ways to abuse any system you implement and go from there. lol

Getsuei 01-07-2013 10:54 PM

It has been stated that the faq is out of date and updating it has to go through legal before they can actually do that.

10. Myth: You can't defend yourself against punishments from Tribunal. - Fact: There are two very easy ways to defend yourself against punishment. One is to read this guide to understand what punishable behavior is (so you can avoid behaving the wrong way) and the other is to contact Riot Support to fix your record if you have been wrongfully punished (which is actually quite rare despite the number of complaints one sees on the forum).

Quote:

It's something the team is working on in the next little bit. It requires some collaboration with Legal so it's not as simple as us just straight changing the text as developers.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=31642860

Quote:

I've concluded my analysis and I've unbanned all of 3xecutioner's accounts.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...php?p=31590143

So in short, appeals do happen and get fixed. Send in a request to Player Support. If they do not fix it, it looks like they found suffecient evidence on your account to deny your appeal.

Norwenna 01-08-2013 01:49 AM

What you are saying is a lie, support wont even look at the report itself, they always post the following 3 canned answer no matter what you ask for.

Contacting the riot support is useless as they wont even look at the report card itself.
I made 4 tickets that had basically the exact same copy pasted answers.

They always answer the following post in that order

Quote:

Originally Posted by Answer1
I have reviewed your account and our records indicate that you recently had a case in the Tribunal. Due to actions made on the Fields of Justice, this account has been warned or suspended by The Tribunal which means your Honor has been reset. An email was sent to the email address associated with your account regarding this Tribunal case.
To see your Tribunal case, please visit the following link (please note that this link expires three weeks from the date it was originally generated.):
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribunal/en/case/6021905
You have the power to prevent future suspensions by working to be a positive force in-game with your fellow Summoners. If you feel unsure as to what sort of behavior is appropriate, please consult the Summoner's Code and our Knowledge Base article on reporting players, both of which I have linked below.
Since the action against your account is temporary, it gives you the opportunity to change your behavior in games going forward. We prefer to give players the chance to improve rather than permanently ban an account through which much time has been spent and much effort has been made. You should heed this warning, however, because suspensions will increase in length if you do not improve your behavior and are brought before the Tribunal again. Further negative behavior in-game can culminate in your account being permanently banned from League of Legends.
Please let me know if you have any additional questions. You can learn more about the Tribunal and here:

The Summoner's Code: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/articl...Summoners_Code
Report-a-Player: http://support.leagueoflegends.com/e...rting-a-player
Tribunal FAQ: https://support.leagueoflegends.com/...2-tribunal-faq
Tribunal Honor System FAQ: https://support.leagueoflegends.com/...nor-system-faq

Quote:

Originally Posted by Answer2
Hello Summoner,

Both players and Riot employees viewing Tribunal Cases are provided with chat logs and other relevant stats to reach a decision. Players generally understand what sort of behavior will negatively impact other players and what conduct falls outside of what should be a positive in-game experience. Please consult the Summoner's Code (linked below) if you wish to learn more about the conduct we wish to uphold on the Fields of Justice.
If in the future your account is found to have subsequent violations against the Code of Conduct, additional evaluation and longer suspensions will occur. Further negative behavior in-game can culminate in your account being permanently banned from League of Legends.
Our goal has always been to foster a positive environment in the game where everyone can enjoy themselves, and therefore we must stand strong against negative players, harassment and abuse. If you have been on the receiving end of disruptive behavior, I think you can understand the motivation behind our actions.

Let me know if you have any additional questions.

The Summoner's Code: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/articl...Summoners_Code

Quote:

Originally Posted by Answer3
Greetings Summoner,
We have already explained the context for the action taken against your account and given you the tools to prevent it from reoccurring in the future.
We will not be reversing this decision and consider this matter closed. If you still do not agree or understand the context of this action feel free to discuss this decision on our Tribunal forums listed below:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ay.php?s=&f=41
http://euw.leagueoflegends.com/board...splay.php?f=85
http://eune.leagueoflegends.com/boar...splay.php?f=85

My question to them that they refuse to answer is : why have i been warned, what rule have i broken.
and this is what i get.

ive been trying to get an answer from any riot member as everyone, but they refuse to reply to anything ...


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