League of Legends Community

League of Legends Community (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/index.php)
-   Champion Feedback (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   Warwick, some thoughts, a little depth (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2972211)

Drinniol 01-04-2013 08:49 PM

Warwick, some thoughts, a little depth
 
I'll just jump right into it, and go through all his things in detail.

You can overview his abilities here:
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Warwick

Passive: No scaling other than level scaling, scales incredibly poorly. Only scaling is with attack speed.


Hungering Strike: It's ok, and has innate scaling since it goes by percent health. It's just that... compare it to Mundo's cleaver. Mundo's cleaver at level 1 is doing about the same percent damage as Hungering strike at level 5, with a slow, and at range, at lower cooldown than max rank hungering strike at all ranks, and its minimum flat damage is strictly higher... and its max damage vs monsters is more than double! Hrrm hrrm, so if you wanted a high sustain, tanky type jungler who's great at chasing people down... why would you ever take Warwick over Mundo?


Hunter's Call: Very good, and has utility to help his team. I don't think anything needs to be changed. Scales innately with attack damage and on-hit effects.


Blood Scent: A real nice ability! Great range, great effect, difficult to truly master and with interesting counterplay since enemy can see the buff. At lower ranks, though, the speed buff is just too small. This is WW's only means of securing kills, and considering the hoops you have to go through to utilize it, it could probably stand to have the same speed buff at all ranks, even if this requires a nerf to its rather huge radius. Also, it doesn't work on stealth champs when they are stealthed. I think a compromise that would be fair to stealth champs is to make it work like similar abilities in dota/hon: it would reveal their LOCATION, but not their model. So you could follow them, but not target them until they actually get out of stealth or you use some means of revealing them.


Infinite Duress: This is where WW's kit really falls down, in my opinion. Infinite Duress just has so many problems... It basically has all the downfalls of Malzahar's ults with none of the great power to justify it.

If you read the tooltip, the skill sounds pretty awesome, right? You do FIVE attacks! Holy ****, 5x AD scaling omgwtfbbq. PLUS magic damage. AND you get 30% lifesteal? Hoo boy, how amazing!

Then you use it and do no damage, and you realize.... you don't do any attacks at all during the ult. You just apply on hit effects 5 times and do the ults magic damage which is, at most, a 2.0 AD ratio. And that lifesteal? It does nothing for you, since you're doing magic damage. It's just a holdover from when the ult used to do physical damage, and they never ****ing bothered to change it to spellvamp. For gods sake, Riven can lock someone down longer and do more damage with just her Q and E.

EDIT:
Ha someone revived my really old thread.

My views on WW have changed a little since I originally posted this thread.

My overall retrospective:

-I understated the level scaling of his passive - and now recognize that scaling off gear isn't necessarily only positive. That is, if you have good gear scaling, you probably can't also have good level scaling. Strong level scaling without gear scaling lets WW keep some damage without building it.

-Q is a trickier thing to balance than I let on. Make it too good, WW becomes another annoying brick wall sustain laner. My overall suggestion now would be to remove the cast time (so he can cast while moving) and have it apply on-hits to synergize with WW's passive and build paths.

-I stand by my comments on W, E, and his Ult. It's worth mentioning that my initial post about the ult not having spellvamp is wrong, as I mention on the bottom of page 3. I'm honestly not sure how it all works codewise - but apparently the magic damage does benefit from lifesteal during the ult. The change of WW orientation to be in front of the enemy was a smart one by Riot and made it a little better. It's also worth mentioning that the 2.0 AD ratio on his ult applies ONLY to bonus AD and I never said anything about it.

As to his E, as I said earlier
"The thing about blood scent as it is now is that prior to near max rank it doesn't really help you much. For most champs that have movement increasing moves or escapes... their escapes are pretty much set in stone, they are what they are at level 1 or level 18. That is, Corki's valkyrie isn't any weaker an escape at level 3 than it is at level 18. So if what it takes for a WW to catch an injured Corki after he valks is a 40% movespeed bonus, that Warwick is never going going to catch ANY corki's before he has level 5 blood scent, which is ****. In order to make WW even a moderately effective pursuer prior to 18, his catchup needs to be STRONG even with 1 point invested. Yes, indeed, it needs to be a 1 point wonder because most escapes are 1 point wonders. Another thing that would greatly help is if the buff duration upon sniffing an injured opponent was much longer, say 10 seconds. Right now, if someone gets out of range even briefly (such as with valkyrie for Corki), your buff runs out before you can get into range again and they get away easily."

To say in simpler terms: Most champion escape skills are just as strong an escape skill at level 1 as level 18. So if you want a chase skill that can compete with it, it needs to be, in some sense, as strong with 1 point invested as with five points. There are lots of ways you could "fix" his E, but just upping the speed on the lower ranks to match the upper ranks is probably the simplest.

Drinniol 01-04-2013 09:01 PM

So those are his abilities. They have problems numberswise, as I've listed. You could of course fix them with just numbers tweaks, but I think this would be doing a disservice to Warwick and Warwick players, as it wouldn't fix the fundamental issues with WW's kit.

What are these issues? The issue is with his damage types and his scaling. WW's skills and passive all do magic damage, but not enough to justify building him like a mage. Thus, he never gets spell penetration, and his ability damage languishes. Meanwhile, he only has two abilities that scale with his own gear: his Q, which scales ONLY with AP, and his ult, which scales ONLY with AD, yet does only magic damage! In other words... Warwick is like a hybrid, except instead of benefitting greatly from both AP and AD, he benefits hardly at all from either.

What is the net result of this? All Warwicks, when they aren't building pure tank, build on-hit. This doesn't help his Q at all, but it does synergyze with Hunter's Call and his ult. But wait, even though his ult benefits from on-hit effects, it doesn't scale at ALL with attack speed, which all on-hit items have! In fact, the more attack speed you have, the WORSE your ult becomes compared to just autoattacking. After all, at the attackspeed cap you lose almost five autos in that 1.8 second suppression... which probably does more damage than your ult, which only has a 2.0 AD ratio and not spectacular base damage, ALL magic to boot!

So overall, if you REALLY want to fix WW, make his abilities scale in such a way that WW has something to build towards. Nowadays, it'd honestly be better for him, metawise, if all his kit just did physical damage again, because armor pen items are so good, and his ult would completely apply black cleaver stacks.

An easy way to fix the reverse scaling of his ult, and give it some oomph and have it synergyze with Hunter's Call instead of just wasting his buff duration would be to just have him autoattack while doing his ult in addition to his ult stuff. Give that ult an AA reset too, and bam, Warwick has some bite again.

Drinniol 01-04-2013 09:19 PM

first post tl;dr
Warwick's passive and Q kind of suck, his E kind of sucks at low level, his ult sucks the big one to the point of being pretty much broken.

second post tl;dr
Warwick's has nothing to build for, damagewise, because his abilities have ****ty scaling, scale on totally different things, and actually scale negatively relative to just autoattacking. Also, his damage is split types but he can't justify building hybrid items.

Tang Bohu 01-04-2013 09:26 PM

My buddy constantly plays ww and while his ganks are sub-par till lvl 6, he is still one of the few junglers that can do it without smite which is a rather large plus (yes, I am aware it would be harder, but still.)

Drinniol 01-04-2013 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cook My Socks (Hozzászólás 33168046)
My buddy constantly plays ww and while his ganks are sub-par till lvl 6, he is still one of the few junglers that can do it without smite which is a rather large plus (yes, I am aware it would be harder, but still.)

If you actually are determined, there are very few junglers who absolutely NEED smite...

But you don't take it because you need it, you take it because it's the best summoner spell for you. If you go without smite, your problem isn't dieing so much as it is simply being slower and being unable to safely secure buffs and objectives against the enemy jungler who does have smite.

Tang Bohu 01-04-2013 09:43 PM

Quote:

If you actually are determined, there are very few junglers who absolutely NEED smite...
NEED vs still viable are two different things. While it is ridiculously advantageous, he wont end up 4 levels behind like many other champs running around the fog of war would without smite. Plus, He is still able to play multiple roles.

You are QQing about WW not being badass ENOUGH. I understand it may suck, but I don't see justification till Leona stops being forced to play only support when she is actually "Tank". There is a difference.

>_>

PS: Karma and Sejouni are way worse off.

Drinniol 01-04-2013 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cook My Socks (Hozzászólás 33168491)
NEED vs still viable are two different things. While it is ridiculously advantageous, he wont end up 4 levels behind like many other champs running around the fog of war would without smite. Plus, He is still able to play multiple roles.

You are QQing about WW not being badass ENOUGH. I understand it may suck, but I don't see justification till Leona stops being forced to play only support when she is actually "Tank". There is a difference.

>_>

PS: Karma and Sejouni are way worse off.

I'm not QQing, I'm posting feedback about a champion I care about on the champion feedback board. I know full well that Karma and Sejuani and other are way worse off than Warwick, but Warwick has a lot of problems too and he shouldn't be ignored. They should ALL be fixed and the entire purpose of this board is to share thoughts on how!

ImpTaimer 01-04-2013 10:05 PM

WW's only "useless" ability is his Scent, the upside is that it costs nothing and is toggleable.

His passive scales with AS, Magic Penetration, and Spirit Visage.

His Q scales with AP, CDR, Magic Penetration, and Spirit Visage.

His W scales with CDR.

His E scales with nothing.

His R scales with AD, CDR, On-Hit, and Spirit Visage.

Easy (good sustain): Build tanky. Spirit of the Golem (Jungle), Spirit Visage, and Frozen Mallet being good choices.

Medium (good dps): Build AS/On-hit: Spirit of the Elder Lizard (Jungle), Blade of the Ruined King, and Zephyr being good choices

Hard (good burst): Build AP. Spirit of the Spectral Wraith (Jungle), Malady, and Liandry's Torment being good choices.

WW is the easiest AD jungler and Nunu is the easiest AP jungler. Both of them can play relatively the same way, but WW has an easier time with AA enhancers and Nunu has an easier time with ability enhancers. Both can do the tanky job well enough.

Drinniol 01-04-2013 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImpTaimer (Hozzászólás 33169045)
WW's only "useless" ability is his Scent, the upside is that it costs nothing and is toggleable.

His passive scales with AS, Magic Penetration, and Spirit Visage.

His Q scales with AP, CDR, Magic Penetration, and Spirit Visage.

His W scales with CDR.

His E scales with nothing.

His R scales with AD, CDR, On-Hit, and Spirit Visage.

Easy (good sustain): Build tanky. Spirit of the Golem (Jungle), Spirit Visage, and Frozen Mallet being good choices.

Medium (good dps): Build AS/On-hit: Spirit of the Elder Lizard (Jungle), Blade of the Ruined King, and Zephyr being good choices

Hard (good burst): Build AP. Spirit of the Spectral Wraith (Jungle), Malady, and Liandry's Torment being good choices.

WW is the easiest AD jungler and Nunu is the easiest AP jungler. Both of them can play relatively the same way, but WW has an easier time with AA enhancers and Nunu has an easier time with ability enhancers. Both can do the tanky job well enough.

But your post exactly reveals the problem, other than CDR which scales everything (but not really, his R is once per fight regardless), every ability he has is scaled by different things. Also, saying his passive scales with attack speed is little disingenuous. Yeah, it's true, but it's scaling from negligible to negligible times 2 or whatever.

Compare this to someone like a mage, who will typically have 3 or even 4 abilities and a passive which all scale coherently with the same thing, or an AD caster who, as of season 3, has items which give them everything they could ever need. Warwick isn't playing in a vacuum: he needs to be compared to other champs, and if you want him to be competitive with the best of those champs he needs to be as good as those champs.

Drinniol 01-04-2013 11:18 PM

I know Warwick isn't that popular, but surely some more people have thoughts?


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:27 PM.


(c) 2008 Riot Games Inc