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-   Dominion (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=43)
-   -   Revive: turning bad plays into undeserved wins since 2011 (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2957909)

FDru 12-31-2012 12:52 AM

Revive: turning bad plays into undeserved wins since 2011
 
It's like the respawn window timer except with a button so you can do it whenever.

Why has this spell, which is completely broken on Crystal Scar and totally useless on the other maps (and even disabled on one), not been fixed or flat out removed yet?

naotasan 12-31-2012 01:12 AM

The same reasons why Kassadin is still a problem, 14 months later.

DG Denz Brujah 12-31-2012 02:38 AM

Oh look Fdru complaining again.... Guess someone got butthurt after losing a match. The same thing can be said about flash/heal/barrier being a crutch for bad positioning. Summonses are supposed to be used to give one an advantage it's up to the user which spells to use and when and where to use them. If you don't want to take every advantage available that's on you. Don't blame the spell.

DiscworldDeath 12-31-2012 03:28 AM

Considering both sides have access to Revive, your argument does not hold. Revives should on average cancel itself out, and if one side keeps winning due to their revive, and one side that even though they have Revive too cannot, it means these so called "bad plays", aren't bad plays, because they are infirmed strategic decisions.

It's like sayng Karthus' passive rewards bad plays when you choose to die when you have no mana and the enemy team has a lot of hard CC which could disrupt your ult which will win your team the game...

You can keep championing against Revive being mandatory, with which I disagree for different reasons, but there it's at leastt an argument that can be made. Here it's just baseless. It's the same as these elo-hell arguments against the usage of the Elo system.

VoidInsanity 12-31-2012 03:35 AM

You kill an entire team - They revive and kill you. You revive and kill them. Now you are back to square one. I can't dumb it down any more than that. If you still don't get it then you really should stop playing until you do.

NamKim 12-31-2012 04:20 AM

To be honest, I do not like that Revive is sort of a "mistake eraser" and such a thing is just handed to every player.

I am a fan of the idea that Revive should be removed as a summoner spell yet remain on the Crystal Scar in another form that require more strategic planning. The idea is very similar to what they did with Zhonya's Ring. An item that was far too powerful so they split it into two still powerful items.

Revive's power is separated into three parts: the actual revive, the speed boost after reviving, and the health boost.

The alternate forms could be in a form of a buff that you can get from completing a question. The sacrifice that is made is that time is wasted trying to get this buff. If the actual revival is in a form of a buff that is rewarded after a quest then the amount of revives in a game can be controlled. Meaning only select individuals can get it. Unfortunately, at lower elos, people will probably screw up and the person who needs the revival the least will probably take it. At higher elo, people should be able to determine who should take it to give their team the biggest strategic advantage.

For Season 3, Riot made Boot Enchantments. Homeguard was disabled on Dominion for obvious reasons, but why can't Riot play with this idea more? Make an enchantment that offers a speed boost when you respawn. In a map like Dominion where death is common, having such an enchantment is useful, however, in order to use it, you have to die. So, it is somewhat bittersweet.

Riot could also give the powers of revival in an item form, like a Guardian Angel that has been edited for Dominion. The item's active can only be used when dead. People would have to make a decision "Is it worth it? If I get 'FDru's Angel,' I have to waste a ton of gold on this item that'll probably only give me one 'do-over.' I also have to give up having a stat-heavy item for this item that is expensive due to its utility, not for its stats." My idea is to make it so organized teams will still buy this item, but only selected individuals would get it. Who would get this it? How can people make it so the person with this item cannot simply be ignored?

As for those who argue that people would have the ability to get a combo of summoner spells that could result in something more unfair than having Revive, that's something RiotNome has to tackle. I don't think RiotNome is as limited by saying "I can get rid of revive, but they'll take a more anti-fun combo of summoner spells." I think RiotNome should be saying "Let's change the summoner spells for Dominion to make each spell offer a variety of strategic play." Someone from Riot, a developer I believe, even said that he suggested to RiotNome that he should just make Dominion specific summoner spells instead of using Summoner's Rift's. He said that RiotNome seemed against the idea but I think that just revamping Dominion's Summoner's spell might fix a ton of problems and give RiotNome a TON of flexibility.

dr;tl: Revive in its current form limits strategic plays. RiotNome could probably figure a couple of ways to "keep" revive in the game but open up a new field of strategic play with it.

Edit: I mean, yeah, FDru is known to be very blunt. But if you think about it, there is some truth to what he says. If you sit down and wrote it down, is Revive in its current form "anti-fun?" Is it the best for Dominion right now or can it become even better? If it could be better, wouldn't you think that changing it for the better would make Dominion an even better map? Remember that we are not simply trying to convince other players to play Dominion. We are also trying to convince Riot that the Crystal Scar is a map worth pouring resources into. A map that could see very competitive play. If we limit ourselves to keeping the status quo, Dominion cannot become this incredibly amazing map in Riot's eyes.

DiscworldDeath 12-31-2012 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NamKim (Hozzászólás 33010755)
dr;tl: Revive in its current form limits strategic plays. RiotNome could probably figure a couple of ways to "keep" revive in the game but open up a new field of strategic play with it.

Edit: I mean, yeah, FDru is known to be very blunt. But if you think about it, there is some truth to what he says. If you sit down and wrote it down, is Revive in its current form "anti-fun?" Is it the best for Dominion right now or can it become even better?

1. You say it, but where is the backing? It's just a statement, and I also think it is false. Getting bot lane's revive off is an additional layer of strategy, and as I answered to FDru above, I think at worst its strategic net value is zero, and not negative.

2. I discussed this elsewhere, multiple times. Revive is as pro-fun as it gets. What is fun is running around and doing stuff. Being dead is not-fun, revive shortens the amount of time you're either dead or traveling to the action, and thus, is the epitome of designing for fun. It may be unhealthy, but it is super fun.

3. You're making such a huge logical leap here. That if we want Dominion to be better (and who doesn't), then we must agree to removing Revive, because it exemplifies the "Status quo". Balderash. We want Dominion to get better, but the status quo is rarely all bad.

konfetarius 12-31-2012 05:29 AM

Quote:

To be honest, I do not like that Revive is sort of a "mistake eraser" and such a thing is just handed to every player.
Revive has a 9 minute cooldown. It's not a freebie mistake eraser when using it can be a mistake in and of itself or when being forced to use it is a consequence of making a mistake.

Imagine, for a second, if in an RTS, a unit producing factory was called to be a mistake eraser because you could rebuild your army after losing it. This is how silly your argument looks here.

NamKim 12-31-2012 06:01 AM

I do not view Revive as harshly as FDru does. I think that is something you have to understand. What I do not like is when a certain summoner spell becomes a necessity in almost every game. A lot of people say that Riot is now balancing champions assuming they have flash. I do not like this since it pretty much means you will have to take flash to use these champions to their fullest. Since flash counters flash, your opponents needs to take flash as well. Then everyone takes flash. In that case, why not just give everyone flash and give them only one summoner spell slot?

Revive is very powerful. So, you need revive to counter revive. This just doesn't sit well for me. I feel that when something is so powerful that everyone feels the need to take it, then it should just become something everyone has to begin with. Give everyone revive and one summoner spell slot.

Anyways, that is all I have to say. By posting in this thread, I cannot help but feel that I am treading in territory I shouldn't be in. I feel the need to express my views, but I also feel terrible for actually posting them as well.

Haha, I should probably take a break from the forums for awhile. Just enjoy the rest of my winter break with a nice book, YouTube videos, and Dominion.

Redenbacher 12-31-2012 06:02 AM

I don't want Revive to be removed, but I do want all of the available summoned spells to be viable, simultaneously. I want to be able to run two different summoner spells without feeling like I'm hamstringing the team.

For that to happen, all summoner spells need to be looked at in the context of Dominion.


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