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-   -   Force of Nature (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2936187)

Yěx 12-23-2012 08:12 PM

Force of Nature
 
I don't know why this item was removed. As far as I'm concerned, it was the only item I ever built for MR. Now, I'm torn between something that gives you Mana + HP, and something that gives you Attack Damage.

FoN was a solid MR item that scaled great with all tanks. I struggle even building MR anymore because I feel like there's more important things to get rather than Banshee's or Scimitar.

If anyone has any tips on what they build for MR in S3, they'd greatly be appreciated, because right now, I'm having a hard time playing any tanks against heavy AP teams.

Tl;dr: Bring back FoN or a substitute. Tell me what you build for MR.

Edit: Downvotes for sharing an opinion and asking a question... GD is so kind.


So we've had some good feedback from Xypherous regarding the removal of FoN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xypherous (Hozzászólás 32780220)
Sure - I can take a stab at this.

The magic resistance option for tanks currently are:


Runic Bulwark
Spirit Visage
Banshee's Veil
Mikael's Crucible

AP Tanks also have: Abyssal Scepter, Twin Shadows

Roughly half of the items in this pool build out of a Negatron Cloak (Abyssal / Visage / Veil) while the other half build out of Null Magic (Runic, Crucible, Shadows)

There isn't quite a concept as AD Tank as anyone with this classification turns out to be a fighter more often than not.

The movement speed options for tanks currently are the same as most other characters in the game, by intent:


Wraith Collar
Alacrity Enchantment

Jungle Tanks additional get two additional options, due to the fact that Golem Soul grants Tenacity and can thus sub out Mercury Treads for additional options:

Swiftness Boots
Mobility Boots

As for HP/5 - that statistic has been admittedly unsupported as a late-game statistic - mostly because we raised Strength of Spirit a tier up - This change hasn't been as effective as I'd actually liked it to have been for support end-game HP/5 without mid-game HP/5 and it's something that I'd want to take a look at in the future.

The reason for removing FoN are as follows - here are the typical cases you'd purchase FoN:


1. You need MR - and you need it now.


However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak or Aegis + Negatron Cloak. Considering that Aegis was cost-efficient by itself in terms of statistic strength and that the lone Negatron Cloak could always be upgraded to Abyssals - this meant that optimal MR was always going to include Negatron Cloak sitting in your inventory without a build.

2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character


However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game. This simply impacts casters negatively - because if tanks are balanced around always having an additional 76 MR for their movement speed options - almost every source of magic damage needs to be absurd (or conversely, there cannot be other movement speed options)

Speed being attached to a primary resistance counter-item is always going to be awkward - if you need movement speed ubiquitously - unless you fight the perfect composition, you are always basically screwing yourself if this is your primary movement speed source.

3. You prize HP/5 as a statistic.


This is really where the crux of the main argument lies. If you are a player who thinks highly of HP/5 as a statistic - then Force of Nature made sense because that is the primary function Force of Nature did well - otherwise, if you were actually optimizing MR - you built twin Aegis and a Negatron Cloak (which would turn into Abyssal).

However, HP/5 is a very *poor* statistic coupled with burst mitigation and movement speed. One is a set of statistics for primary initiators - the other is a set of statistics for dedicated siegers - Force of Nature was suboptimal unless broken with additional sources of Health (such as Warmog's Armor, for example) - However, this particular pairing is (as many people have pointed out in terms of what champion they miss Force of Nature on) a dedicated Bruiser/Fighter path - one that we don't really particularly need / want to support given how durability focused those characters can get.

Both the Kage's upgrades service different tanks for the purposes of initiating fights - the combined effect of movement speed, long range slows and having a large portion of the item cost negated by how early it fits into your build makes Twin Shadows fairly powerful when used well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xypherous (Hozzászólás 32780317)
No doubt - but we chose to favor the path that most tanks would have moderate income streams rather assume they would have high income streams due to the nature of the tank role. We basically optimized their items around flexible mid-tier items rather than assume a high gold baseline and that they would hit 6 items. We figured that, in the vast majority of games, tanks should be building piecemeal to react to their situation - not merely opting for a static build-path that discounts who / what the enemy is. This meant favoring smaller items rather than slot-efficiency for the most part, because you have to factor in what the opponent is rushing.

Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xypherous (Hozzászólás 32784383)
We nerfed it, removed some bonuses and then nerfed it again once everything turned out to be unkillable and lightning fast - then we nerfed it again. Sejuani / Hecarim essentially became unkillable machines of death that could never take any damage and couldn't be stopped or evaded.

Basically, the fall-out of that was - a large MR item that was single-slot *had* to be MR-inefficient to actually work in our game, otherwise that single item would either have to be so expensive as to be the gold cost of two items (4200'ish - which is incidentally, how Scimitar's final pricing came about) or inefficient in that a portion of it was consumed some kind of unique passive, hence Bulwark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xypherous (Hozzászólás 32783373)
It's more than that - it's about sacrificing entire tiers of other itemization that could exist - for the sake of a niche item that is good some of the time. FoN was strangling other itemization options that could exist because of how awkward and powerful the stats were on a single item.

Having a fallback "swiss-army" knife for tanks that got progressively more niche the higher ELO you got in exchange was not worth not being able to have or make additional MS/MR or a strong Spirit Visage / Anti-AoE item. Twin Shadows, Alacrity, Bulwark, upgraded Spirit Visage, etc - all could not exist in the same environment that Force of Nature would exist in - as the stacked potential of each one of these would have been assuredly abusive - and when toned down to prevent the abuse case - don't really serve any of their core purposes.


Byk Beta Player 12-23-2012 08:14 PM

Yes its sad they removed it but there is a way around this although its not as awesome as FoN was...build flat rune page of mr

CryoTyrfing 12-23-2012 08:15 PM

Spirit Visage, Runic Bulwark. If you've got a healing skill you can get Visage and benefit from every bit of it. If you just want overall tankiness then there's no reason to not buy Bulwark, even if the support is getting it. If you're an AP tank you get Abyssal. If you're an AD tank you get Mercurial.

Krynul 12-23-2012 08:18 PM

I suppose you can build a runic bulwark if you need a huge chunk of MR. The problem is that you're paying for a LOT of other stats and none of the pieces of runic bulwark are a negatron cloak preventing you from just buying a large chunk of MR cheaply. You have to buy pieces of armor health and regeneration long before you get a huge piece of MR out of the deal.

Furthermore there isn't really any proper itemization for tanks looking for movement speed. Very few of my tanks are capable of sticking to their targets anymore. Tanks should have some viable means of getting over 400 movespeed. Some tanks can get between 400-415 which is nice, but most carries are rocking out at around 435+ meaning it's incredibly difficult to stick to them or keep up with your own.

Riot not only removed the premier piece of MR from the game, they removed the premier movespeed item for tanks.

Yěx 12-23-2012 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CryoTyrfing (Hozzászólás 32774997)
Spirit Visage, Runic Bulwark. If you've got a healing skill you can get Visage and benefit from every bit of it. If you just want overall tankiness then there's no reason to not buy Bulwark, even if the support is getting it. If you're an AP tank you get Abyssal. If you're an AD tank you get Mercurial.

Bulwark is good and all, but the MR it gives doesn't really feel substantial compared to FoN's. Plus FoN's passive was great as well.

Talisid 12-23-2012 08:19 PM

If this was the only item you ever built for MR you were doing something wrong.

Yěx 12-23-2012 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talisid (Hozzászólás 32775129)
If this was the only item you ever built for MR you were doing something wrong.

FoN + Treads seemed to do the trick for me in S2..? On top of my MR runes.

CryoTyrfing 12-23-2012 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yěx (Hozzászólás 32775125)
Bulwark is good and all, but the MR it gives doesn't really feel substantial compared to FoN's 72(?) or whatever it was. Plus FoN's passive was great aswell.

I don't remember exactly why it was removed, go hunt down Xypherous' huge item thread for the reasoning, but Bulwark provides 60 to the wearer, which is still a nice chunk. The passive was given to Warmog's which I think you're building anyway. You're right about the movespeed bit, I think Alacrity boots and the general movespeed increase was suppose to help with that, but Iunno.

Byk Beta Player 12-23-2012 08:21 PM

^^

Krynul 12-23-2012 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CryoTyrfing (Hozzászólás 32775223)
I don't remember exactly why it was removed, go hunt down Xypherous' huge item thread for the reasoning, but Bulwark provides 60 to the wearer, which is still a nice chunk. The passive was given to Warmog's which I think you're building anyway. You're right about the movespeed bit, I think Alacrity boots and the general movespeed increase was suppose to help with that, but Iunno.

Xypherous's reason was as follows:
The mix of stats was confusing and made people feel like it was a bad buy or a waste of gold.

Tell me a tank that doesn't like huge MR, regeneration, and movespeed. I'm waiting. What tank considers those a waste of stats? I'm sure you can't name a tank who wouldn't buy it in a situation where they needed MR. Most of my tanks bought it, in fact I only bought alternatives if those alternatives fit my tanks better. Half the time I bought FoN later anyways.

Screw Xypherous and his BS reason. They took it out because they wanted to !@#$ tanks over. If he had just said "it's OP" or "it doesn't fit into the direction we're trying to take tanks" I wouldn't be so pissed. The fact that he said "it felt like a bad buy, or it was an awkward buy" just pisses me off. This is like the time they said "we're fixing a bug on Shyv that had her burnout lasting 6 seconds instead of 3." when everyone and their mom knew the tooltip said it was supposed to last 6 seconds. They couldn't just say it was a nerf, they had to cover it up as a "bug fix".

I wish they'd just be straight with us. They are most of the time. Or if they're going to lie, come up with a lie people are going to believe -.-


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