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-   -   Calling Lanes, Que Dodging, 3 year olds, and why Riot should take a stance (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2933054)

Goodguy Hopper 12-22-2012 07:42 PM

Calling Lanes, Que Dodging, 3 year olds, and why Riot should take a stance
 
If you like what I said or even just want this discussion to get some notice please post a comment to show your support.

I know this will be long so I'll get a tl;dr at the bottom for our ADD friends. (Also at the bottom i'll put links to recap posts so you can get recaps of discussions through several pages, should save some reading time if you want to join in)

All of the ranked players in league will have experienced at some point a player calling a role, when they had hoped to play that role and had a higher pick than the player who called for a certain role.

Riots current stance on this -
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendragon (Hozzászólás 31679754)
I don't think it's possible for us to have an official stance. I think there's a grey line here where sometimes it's fine and sometimes it isn't fine.

Be socially aware, try to be flexible, communicate both ways, etc.

By calling this a grey area you are essentially saying it is simultaneously ok for a player to call a lane, and ok for his teammates with a higher pick order to disregard that claim. Leaving this in a blank state unintentionally(?) creates a divide between teammates right from the start.

When a player calls a role that really isn't all that terrible, but because so many players will play that role even if someone in front of them locks in on that role it creates some weight behind the claim, and applies pressure to the higher picks to adhere to that claim if they don't want to have a feeder on their team.

If the higher pick decides that they are better at the role possibly even through empirical evidence such as lolking data or self knowledge of their win ratios in various roles, and decides to lock in on the called role they are gambling that the other person will behave rationally about their decision. Assuming the other person does not the only remaining option available to that player is to protest with their feet (queue dodge).

It is unlikely that the other player who did not behave rationally about not getting the role they want will queue dodge, they have already demonstrated that they care little enough about winning by their intentional miss pick.

So coming down this train of thought that there will be a queue dodge lets look at queue dodging. Riot removed the elo penalty for queue dodging recognizing that people can and will troll ranked games despite the personal loss to themselves. Riot has also adopted the position that too many queue dodges are a banable offense. Their argument is that they do not want people queue dodging "frivolously"-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yegg (Hozzászólás 29099119)
Greetings summoners,

A few months ago we tried an experiment of removing the Elo penalty for dodging ranked games. In general I think everyone is happy with the results, with a couple notable exceptions:

1. Some players are dodging whenever they perceive that the other team has a stronger composition, with the goal of increasing their Elo through only playing when they have an advantage.

2. There's been an increase of what I'll call "queue dodge trolling", where a player will choose their champion and/or summoner spells in an effort to upset their teammates and get someone else to dodge for them.

Due to these, it can take a frustrating amount of time to get through champion select and into a game, especially at higher Elo ratings. We feel your pain on this issue, and in fact, many Rioters play at high Elos where these behaviors are the most common.

So, where does that leave us now? We're currently evaluating long term plans for further updating the penalty in order to discourage some of the more frivolous dodging. And in the short term, we'll be analyzing all of our queue dodge data for matchmade games and issuing warnings or temporary bans to players who are abusing it excessively.

If you've dodged a few times due to the occasional troll, you don't need to worry. We will only be targeting the worst offenders, both in terms of dodging and in terms of trolling to force others to dodge. This will be happening sometime in the next week.

Until then, may all your champ selects be harmonious and free of dodges!

While I understand Riots point that only the worse offenders for queue dodging will be banned. It is still a stance that troubles me when i dodge; despite Riot's reassurance that "only the worst" will be punished.

Down to brass tacks-

Queue Dodging-
In solo queue an individual player represents roughly 10% of the result of a match, individually players have little control over the course of the game, and the fact that no matter how good you are at the game you can still suffer losses to bad team mates is very infuriating, and this negative emotional build up is bad for the individual, his future teams, and Riot as a gaming company. The single most powerful tool riot has given players that can help them feel empowered is the ability to bow out of a queue in which they feel their team is not up to par. Their decision could be based on their team mates lolking, their teams champion picks, or even just the attitude of their team mates in chat. Either way it was less of a toxic environment for both themselves and their would have been team mates who they had a low opinion of. The decision to dodge is not an entirely unskilled one either. Rapidly assessing the comparative skill level between your team and your opponents team given limited information is in fact a highly skill intensive decision.

What does this mean for you Riot -
You should support the idea of player's dodging for ANY reason because when they dodge it means they have a low opinion of their team mates and they are preventing a toxic environment which will inevitably reflect poorly on you as a company. I am not unaware of the need to prevent people from using the dodge tool as a means of trolling, but when you say "This player kept dodging games until he/she found one they could win, and that is wrong." I look at it and think that is hardly wrong they where willing to pay a penalty of their time and effort to assure a victory, and have continued to demonstrate skill in actually winning the games they select to play, quite the opposite of wrong that is smart.

Another issue involved with dodging are players who intentionally try and get others to dodge. This is to my mind a pretty deplorable act and is exemplary of abusing the system I moments ago was praising. Rather than dig through tons of data and try to identify players who are in a high percentage of dodged games wouldn't it be simpler to allow a player to report "why" or more accurately who they dodged because of? If this was allowed it would rapidly identify players who are causing others to dodge via trolling and quickly eliminate those players.

Your next objection is going to be "a player will dodge because they didn't get the role they wanted and will report the player who took the role they 'called'" and right about now your realizing how you not taking a stance on calling roles is standing in the way of improving the game in anther aspect... Neat huh?

You have already demonstrated your willingness to be a morale judge and jury on other issues which is 100% ok. So why not in this case which is causing so much conflict between your players? I am sure you care about the players based on the amount of effort you put into socially molding your community.

This initial step of saying either: "They who called it first, should be allowed to play it" or "The pick order gets the final say in who plays what" will do very little in terms of immediately changing the current conflict but it will give those non-toxic forum reading players something to focus on and work towards. It will also give you as a company a direction to work towards when making mechanical changes to the queuing process.

Why should you say pick order takes precedence over calling a role?

I think in some small way I may have gotten across why you should make a stance, but which should you decide between I am not sure I have relayed. Based on how I have spoken you can probably imagine which side I am on, but don't let that sway you into believing I have not considered both.

I do in fact support the opinion that pick order is superior to calling roles.
1. The pick order is reflective of the relative rating of the players, in some small way this means that if both players could only play the same role you have slightly more empirical evidence that suggests which would be better at the disputed role.

2. Over the course of hundreds of games you will have your turn being seated as anywhere from 1st through 5th pick and as such this produces the most fair system in which players would get their "turn" playing more favored roles. The exception to this being duo queue with high elo gaps. In this case the duo queue is gaining the first pick in exchange for the last pick (probably fair).

IDEA(S) for balancing pick order
I was thinking about a game I had back when i was in the high 1400's where not one word was said all during champion select, we ended up with a well balanced team, and no one was upset over not getting the role they called. Once we got in the game we talked about positioning and pinged when we needed to. Overall one of the most enjoyable games i have ever played, and it all started with players getting in there and doing what needed to be done to win without worrying about where they would be when the win occurred. In light of this I thought man if they just disabled chat during champ selection every game would have to be like this. You couldn't get mad at anyone for "taking your role" because there wouldn't be any way they could have known. I understand this eliminates champion swapping, but honestly I think extra harmony amongst players would be worth losing the champion swap option.

Another option would be to have a team captain(TC) who assigns roles at the start of the game. Just give them a hover over that shows win loss records with their top 3 champions, and let him work it out based on that information. If there is a disagreement then there is a clear "troll" who is not listening to the TC. For yeas competitive sports have nominated and used TCs to settle disputes and maintain team balance, some TCs being more successful than other also adds an additional skill aspect to the game.

Calling roles and its problems + some possible solutions if riot wants to go this route.
One problem with calling roles is that even if every player always called the role they where good at they would collide with other players who are also good at their best roles. Secondly when it becomes a foot race for first to call, the typed message appears on a players screen as soon as they press enter where it takes time to turn up on others. So frequently when both players say 'I see i called it first, they are both being honest." Someone is gonna feel cheated when a third party steps in and says who it shows first on their screen. Additionally the games is currently setup with a pick order so to call a role you would need to rework the queuing system. This will most likely lead to longer queue times as the server searches for compatibility, and will also probably lead to more unbalanced games as the server broadens its search to make a full team fit.

If you are going to do called roles players need to be able to call their role before they go into champion select otherwise you are going to continue to generate toxic environments where players have both called the same role. To do this players are going to need to precheck which roles they are going to play and be informed of which role they have been assigned. This will also stagnate the meta as riot will officially be recognizing the current role system, and which lanes those roles "belong" in.

The problem, the metaphorical "dumby" version
The problem is currently like two 3-year-olds fighting over the front seat of a car. Normally if there wasn't a parent around the bigger and stronger one would simply punch the other one push them into the back seat and accept the consequences latter. For there to be a peaceful resolution there needs to be a parent near by to enforce the concept of taking turns. Riot you, unfortunately, need to be that parent in this instance because we can't roshambo for this over the internet.

High Queue Times as an argument against dodging
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alyssa Riel (Hozzászólás 32751330)
In league queue dodging does not harm the other team, it actually slows your rate of elo gain in comparison to the opposition. While it can be frustrating for players who have high queue times to have to re-queue they still did not lose any elo based on your dodge. The issue of high queue times because of large differences in elo should, in my humble opinion, be addressed as a problem with the slowness of the sorting algorithm being run by riot. If Riot wants to get really serious about lowering those queue times they need to task some of their better software engineers with creating a more efficient sorting algorithm, or if those software engineers say it can't be done they need to employ someone with more skill.

Some of the more impact full things from this thread
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollingson (Hozzászólás 32745168)
My computer loads into champ select slowly, I live in Australia, I don't see why people with slower load ins should have to take what they are given.

I just got a verballing and three guys tried to abuse me into dodging when I chose jungle over their last pick mate, who called it first. I stayed and carried and we won and they still all reported me so I might lose my ribbon over it.

Sucks. But why should I always have to be the flexible one who goes support just because I have a slower load in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob (Hozzászólás 32749210)
I disagree with your solution however queue dodging is a huge problem atm and causes the most amount of frustration above any other issue save one (playing a 4v5 game out when 1 player never connected).

Trolling in lobbies is at an all time high and I was so INCREDIBLY frustrated that I started leveling a smurf account mostly when I had to queue dodge on my main. And do not get me wrong I don't dodge frivolously but there are many others who will refuse to compromise and are willing to play troll games if they do not get their role.

It is much better at certain times of day and at certain elo levels I have found. I would like an option to report troll picks in the lobby so I do not have to play a game of chicken about who will dodge or not because of the obvious troll and nor do my teammates like that pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThoseAboutToRock (Hozzászólás 32760423)
I think the premise of the argument, based on Riot's stance, is a bit faulty. Their actual stance can be seen in the Summoner's Code (in which they encourage later picks to fill spots).

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/articl...Summoners_Code

-> Support your team, 2nd paragraph

"If you’re the last one to pick, try to fill a niche in your team that hasn’t already been filled."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krael (Hozzászólás 32783636)
Why not have the ability to vote in lobby, just as they have implemented in the game to surrender, where a 4/5 vote will force the trolls to be kicked from the game. That way if the players who are cooperating realize that a player is toxic, they can avoid the game of chicken and deal with the problem. Yes this might mean players will be re-queued but after time the "trolls" would hopefully learn that they can not just bully the other players into dodging for them until they find a game where the players will comply to their selfish wishes.
Yes, I understand that in Normal SR games where you have a team of four friends they could possibly abuse this system if the odd man out does not do as they wish but it's a small price to pay and the majority of the trolling is in ranked where it is impossible to queue with more than one other summoner. They have "trusted" us enough to take fate into our own hands for surrendering games when we unanimously agree the game has come to a logical end, why not give us the power to fix this problem ourselves
~krael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celenphor (Hozzászólás 32817144)
How could taking a stance make it any worse than it is? Do you know how many fights will be over when 4 people can point out to the 5th the official Riot stance on pick order vs calling roles? 80% of the arguments in champ select are over that very issue. Riot needs to pick one, so that we players have something official to point to and say, "Look, here's the rules of the game, you agreed to play by those rules when you agreed to the ToS and if you chose not to follow the rules you will be subject to consequences" because as it sits now you either have to dodge and wait 30 minutes, or stick to your guns and hope you don;t get trolled by a toxic player who's acting out.

To suggest an official policy on pick order vs calling roles wouldn't help the game is wildly missing the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcticfury (Hozzászólás 33075842)
I completely agree with the problems you have listed. I have played with too many supports as I adc that feed 3-4 deaths before level 5 and blame me for not killing the opposing adc before they die. Or as jungle I have a top that turret dives at level 3 and then complains I was there to help gank and blames me. I've run into 5-6 games like this in a row. I am no pro, but I know I'm better than many of my teammates, though not good enough to over turn their feeding.

So I know that trolling is a problem, fighting over roles is a problem, and it seems that this is something unavoidable in the Solo/Duo games. You can't just randomly smash 5 players together and think that the 5 will all have the desire to play 5 unique roles. Dodging is a problem, I hate queueing 5 games just to play a single ranked game.

So I don't think allowing one problem to become a larger problem is a good solution. No other area of life would this be good, nor does it make sense unless you're the one that wants to be the problem.

So Riot should make Dodging very unattractive, but they need to address the Trolls, and you are right to say that the first step is to take a stance. It's like trying to create order by not making any rules, it just doesn't happen. If we have no rules on the freeway we'd have 100,000 different systems in place any given morning on our way to work and their would be absolute chaos.

After Riot takes a stance they need to enforce that stance, and then, and only then, will we have a system where dodging becomes less necessary.

So I completely disagree that they should make dodging easier or lessen the penalty for it, quite the opposite actually. I think they need to focus 100% on making it less necessary to dodge. This is the only good answer.

You shouldn't get to pick the team you play against, QQ because you got countered or QQ because you didn't get your ideal role. Riot needs to quit catering to all of these QQers. They need to remove their ability to force dodges and to troll. Let us report the trolls, but you can't report someone for breaking a rule that doesn't exist. Take a stance Riot. It isn't grey, it is extremely black and white, how you balance Karma is grey only because you can do 100 different things to make her balanced, but whether she is balanced or not is not grey. Intentional feeding is black and white, so is trolling, and so is who should have priority in picking their roles. Either make role selection as you queue, or make it first to pick their champ gets first pick on their role. Make a decision and this magically gets better. That simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcticfury (Hozzászólás 33077093)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaros (Hozzászólás 33076403)
You can already report people for being obstinate. Nothing will change from how it is now except the first few picks will be the jerks more often and threaten reporting more than they already do.

True, but who do we report? The one who first called it and didn't get their way or the one who choose because they had first pick? When voting on the case which do you pardon and which do you punish? And we can't even tell which is truly which unless the reporter tells us. But we can't verify it. If Riot makes a rule, then they can rightly add pregame chat to the tribunal cases and we can fairly report, punish and pardon people accordingly.

Right now we just read a bunch of game chat where people argue over who was supposed to be jungle and why we have 2 jungles now.

You have to admit that the current system isn't working well, so what solutions do you have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lbgsloan (Hozzászólás 33272619)
A good 95% of the rage, trolling, and frustration that goes on in LoL is due to the fact you cannot quit a game in progress without getting banned. LoL and all similar games in this genre are the ONLY games I have ever seen that enforce this. Why should you be forced to play with a team that starts acting like ******s before the game even begins? If I'm playing a random team 2v2 RTS and my teammate is a moronic jackass, I'm just going to quit and move on to a game that isn't a sure loss. Why should I have to play that game out? Same with a FPS, if there's an immature mic spamming idiot I'm going to quit and find a game that does NOT involve said idiot. Games are supposed to be fun, and part of the fun factor of multiplayer games is having a team you enjoy playing with. If my team is down in kills 25-9 with 7 towers to 0, why do I have to play it out? Forcing people to stay in that game is EXACTLY WHAT CAUSES VERBAL ABUSE ****STORMS TO BREAK OUT IN CHAT.

I realize LoL soloq would not function it people could quit losing games. And for that reason, I am in full support of unlimited dodging. If I have a really bad feeling before the game even starts, I should be allowed to walk away rather than suffer for 20-30 minutes. I've never been banned, I don't rage in chat; but I still had to stop playing SR because the only way to keep my sanity there was to /mute all at the start of every game. People are more relaxed in Dominion and co-op where there isn't an elo gun over everyone's head and people just shrug when there's a blowout game. How many SR games end with 'report XYZ' these days?

As for calling lanes, I don't see why Riot refuses to take a stance on this one as it is a growing issue. By declaring it a 'gray area', you're telling people that 5th pick control+v'ing TOP OR MID instantly entitles them to throw a tantrum when they don't get those lanes and forces someone else to eat the dodge. Is it really so hard for Riot to say, "Players must respect pick order. Trolling because you did not get your desired role is reportable and bannable behavior." There, matter settled. Of course, Riot could have fixed the 0 CS support thing so last pick wouldn't be terrified of getting a less fun role, but they pussied out yet again much like with Flash. And yes someone will downvote and claim they like 0 CS support. But the fact of the matter is the majority of players do NOT like having to support in soloq where it is the only role than cannot really carry a bad team at all.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Recent Red posts on this Issue -
Quote:

Originally Posted by Griftrix (Hozzászólás 33798094)
It's easy to lose games when you don't work together as a team to figure out roles. Flexibility and understanding of others will increase your Elo more than anything. Teamwork and communication and compromise > pick order/calling.

I agree that flexibility and teamwork go a long way towards increasing your elo, probably more so than any other characteristic(s), and I also recognize you weren't responding to this thread. In a disagreement where neither side can be right/wrong, then the only hope is that whoever is lacking power to support their opinion will remain rational when they don't get their way. It is unreasonable to expect every person queuing for league to be this sort of individual. While unfortunate this does mean that there needs to be some authority stance on what is correct and what is not. Stating, "you will just HAVE to work it out mid champion select." Is essentially begging for conflict, and simply a restatement of Pendragon's original stance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TL;DR -
Riot needs to take a stance on pick order vs. calling roles because their neutrality is generating a toxic environment that the player community can not come to a consensus to on their own.

Riot should rethink their position on queue dodging for any reason because queue dodges have a positive impact on the game by preventing toxic environments. Additionally, it is fair to queue dodge because you suspect you'll lose because it is one of the few aspects players have direct control over as individuals in solo queue where their score currently reflects a summary score of the teams they have played with, but is viewed as an individual reflection of their own skill.

When/If Riot takes a stance on pick order vs. calling roles I support pick order because it is the most fair in terms of cycling who gets to play what roles, and would require the least overhaul in terms of work on the game's mechanics.

Links to Recaps so you can catch up faster if you are new to this thread (cough cough red) -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alyssa Riel (Hozzászólás 33141909)
Recap of Pages 1-13
Vote to kick

Queuing with a role

No or limited chat in Champion select

Stating to the community it is OK to dodge for any reason

Adding a Roshambo system

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alyssa Riel (Hozzászólás 33774461)
Recap pages 14-19

Disabling chat

Lolking Stats

Support is boring as a source of trolling/discontent

Forcing people into roles they don't want as an argument against Pick order

Reducing dodge timer penalty based on dodging from the queue sooner rather than last second.


Flying Sno 12-22-2012 07:46 PM

Tl;dr=tl;dr

Skilliard 12-22-2012 07:50 PM

Quote:

Additionally, it is fair to que dodge because you suspect you'll lose because it is one of the few aspects players have direct control over as individuals in solo que where their score currently reflects a summary score of the teams they played with, but is viewed as an individual reflection of their own skill.
So my willingness to wait 30 minutes or more to play again to prevent a loss of elo is fair?

I used to be 1500 elo for quite a while back in the middle of season 2 back when I used loking to dodge accordingly as well as when I didn't get the role I'm best at, and I later decided I wouldn't dodge because it's unfair. After I made that decision, I am now in the 900-1200 range.

Tenkaybofa 12-22-2012 07:51 PM

why noT puT in a roshambo sysTem, rock paper scissors lizard spock, if posible.

Vizark 12-22-2012 07:58 PM

Queue. Not que.

Goodguy Hopper 12-22-2012 08:32 PM

weird no one has corrected me before, thanks!
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vizark (Hozzászólás 32743491)
Queue. Not que.


Goodguy Hopper 12-22-2012 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skillmaster19 (Hozzászólás 32743336)
So my willingness to wait 30 minutes or more to play again to prevent a loss of elo is fair?

I used to be 1500 elo for quite a while back in the middle of season 2 back when I used loking to dodge accordingly as well as when I didn't get the role I'm best at, and I later decided I wouldn't dodge because it's unfair. After I made that decision, I am now in the 900-1200 range.

That seems like a poor decision on your part, and also has a lot to do with how well you play other roles outside of your preferred role don't you think?


Side thought: missing forum badge?

Goodguy Hopper 12-22-2012 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenkaybofa (Hozzászólás 32743368)
why noT puT in a roshambo sysTem, rock paper scissors lizard spock, if posible.

I guess that could be a solution as long as people adhered to the result.

/roll or /rps would be a nice add in to the chat system.

Rollingson 12-22-2012 08:58 PM

My computer loads into champ select slowly, I live in Australia, I don't see why people with slower load ins should have to take what they are given.

I just got a verballing and three guys tried to abuse me into dodging when I chose jungle over their last pick mate, who called it first. I stayed and carried and we won and they still all reported me so I might lose my ribbon over it.

Sucks. But why should I always have to be the flexible one who goes support just because I have a slower load in.

lol I died again 12-22-2012 08:59 PM

3 year olds can't even take a stance.


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