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-   -   Serious question re: Dominion strategy (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2912103)

xNameless 12-16-2012 08:50 PM

Serious question re: Dominion strategy
 
Howdy :)

It seems that everybody and their mother is obsessed with the idea that you must have 4 fighting for top at all times, and that (for example) having 2 go bot at some point will ALWAYS be a bad idea.

I totally understand that the top tower is the hardest to defend because it's far away, and the towers nearest your base exits are easiest to recapture...but I was under the impression that there are FIVE towers in this game, not one.

So, why are more people not trying to sneak or force the other, non-top towers?

I'm speaking generally, but often when you just stick 4 people top at all times, you actually leave yourself defenseless on the other towers. Taking the non-top towers forces the enemy to respond, and even if you don't have the other towers for very long, you're still forcing them to divert human resource to re-capture/defend the other towers. In a larger strategy, this would be ideal.

For example, if the enemy has a stranglehold on the top tower and there are currently 4 champs there, if we can take their bottom tower, we will have 3 towers (two bot and our mid). The other team will then have to either 1) send a man to try and capture OUR mid (depending on where my whole team is at the time) or send people from top to re-capture their own bot turret.

Basically, what I'm trying to ask is this (here's your TL;DR): Why do people not play the entire map? it seems the only reason we send anyone mid/bot is because the enemy is forcing it.

Are there strategies (or holes in strategies) that I'm simply not getting?

I want to be a better Dom player, that's why I ask these questions.

I appreciate feedback,

-xN

NavyGothic 12-16-2012 08:56 PM

These really should be stickied:

http://www.dominatedominion.com/revi...e-for-newbies/

http://www.dominatedominion.com/revi...l-information/

They're pretty old, but still have tonnes of good info in them.

tldr; Yes indeed, smashing into each other in a 4v4 top slugfest is quite frequently not the best strategy.

The Fizznity 12-16-2012 08:59 PM

If you're playing a good ganker (Eve f.e.), it's often advantageous to do at least one gank after every back post-6.

Mannawyadden 12-17-2012 12:51 AM

i've asked myself the same thing and thought at first that it's just what everyone always does. but the thing is, if team A were to do 3 top, 2 bottom, team B would win top 4v3, and then it would be a very simple matter for one or more of them to recall and reinforce bottom.

Yes Maam Kablam 12-17-2012 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xNameless (Hozzászólás 32523407)
Basically, what I'm trying to ask is this (here's your TL;DR): Why do people not play the entire map? it seems the only reason we send anyone mid/bot is because the enemy is forcing it.

The short answer is because your teammates are bad players. They either don't have the creativity to figure out something different, or don't have the game IQ to know when attacking mid or bottom is a good idea.

hinderlopen 12-17-2012 04:47 AM

From your post, you're definitely on the way to being great at Dominion, you probably just have to put into practice the strategies you're thinking of and see which work and why. First off, I'm going to expand a bit on some situation based strategies.

Obviously: Assuming you hold both your own mid and bot, as usual, it is much easier to hold the windmill than either the enemy bot or mid. This is simply because of the travel distance for reinforcements, making even trades actually even instead of advantageous for the enemy team (they can res and be right there to cap mid/bot instead of res and walk for 30 seconds). This means the strongest strategy will always be to hold bot/mid/top whenever possible.

Now that you know what strategy you're going for, you can think of how to get there.


Assume your team doesn't hold the windmill and ask yourself, "Can we win a 4v4?" if yes, "how?" if no, then this is the right time to be trying the less optimal strategies of attacking mid/bot.

Attacking bot through 1-2 man ganks are meant to give you a numbers advantage in toplane, so you can fight a 4v3 or 3v2 at some point. You should have pressure bottom until this happens, so if you kill the enemy bot laner you MUST attempt to take their tower or the gank is going to do nothing to the situation top. Although, you don't actually have to take their tower as long as you pull enough people down to win the fight at the windmill.

Sending 1 person to backcap mid is effectively the same as attacking bot, you will end up pulling someone down there, but it's a more dangerous position for your teammate and it's easier for the enemy to deal with.

Sending 4 peopel to mid, on the other hand, is meant to give you a position advantage,. The enemy has to rush to their mid, possibly being split between the windmill and spawn, and hopefully lose the ensuing fight.

The above are sort of transition states, where you don't really want to be there, but you have no other choice since the alternative is slamming your face into a brick wall. You want to get them done and over with in as short a time as possible so you can be in the lead with 3 towers again.


As for attacking mid/bot when you already have the windmill, it's risky and you need to be careful when doing it.

If you choose to attack mid, your best bet is to push the minions and really the only point of this is to give you more breathing room while defending top.

If you attack bottom, you HAVE to kill the enemy or threaten to take his tower, failing to do so gives the enemy a free 4v3 at the windmill. Also, even if you take their bot, the 4v3 may still happen and you might lose the windmill, sticking you in that awkward transition state of winning in a non-optimal way.

Although, if it you're at base and you know without a doubt the enemy will take top soon (4v3 just started and your team is losing badly or through some mistake you have no one defending and they've started to cap it), your first reaction should be to send someone to gank bot.



Those are a few of the actions and reasons behind them that you will see in high elo games. All of this takes a considerable amount of game sense, in the same way that knowing when/where to push or gank in SR takes games sense. Low-mid elo players are going to be doing the simplest strategy to win, the five man push mid is similar to the 4 man push top. These players lack the game sense that lets high elo players do crazy shenanigans and still win, so the low elo games will be a bit simpler than high elo ones. What will take someone from mid elo to high elo is being that one person who knows which strategy to use, who knows how to come back from a losing situation faster than the enemy. Since you want to be higher elo, please be that one person who makes the team try something new. Strategic experimentation is a good thing as long as you learn from it.



tl;dr 4 manning top is the simplest way to get into the best winning position, and mid elo players aren't used to forcing other objectives.

kirillian 12-17-2012 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mannawyadden (Hozzászólás 32528489)
i've asked myself the same thing and thought at first that it's just what everyone always does. but the thing is, if team A were to do 3 top, 2 bottom, team B would win top 4v3, and then it would be a very simple matter for one or more of them to recall and reinforce bottom.

This is very rarely the case...theoretically, if everyone was on equal playing fields, a 2v1 advantage is MUCH better than a 4v3 advantage and should result in a faster victory...this is rarely the case however...there's almost always some people derping around since it's solo queue, so it's GENERALLY a good idea to maintain 4 top.

However the difference between a mediocre player and a good player is knowing the difference between when a good time to gank bot is and when a bad time to gank bot is...knowing when to push a lane and when to camp a speedshrine and prevent the enemy team from reinforcing top lane...the difference between when you can actually fight the other team and when you need to backcap in order to win.

Frankly, if you are on the side that has been losing the whole game, STOP teamfighting. It hasn't worked before, why would it suddenly change? Try a 2v1 bot lane...even a 2v2 might be better if you have a stronger 2v2...or even force them to 2v3 you...ANYTHING to give you an advantage.

WARNING: Avoid backcapping their mid...not saying that you should never do it...but it is a delicate thing. If you are struggling to come up with an idea to beat the other team, concentrate on bottom lane. It's MUCH easier to win there than it is to force anything by backcapping mid. Usually people who go for mid do it at the wrong time, or their team follows along derping all the way, getting caught out in the jungle resulting in everyone dead...there are some people that are good at knowing when to backcap...but if you're not sure, I would concentrate on bottom lane...

Infirc 12-17-2012 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCIX (Hozzászólás 32523655)
If you're playing a good ganker (Eve f.e.), it's often advantageous to do at least one gank after every back post-6.

i love when allied eves gank my botlane, it always gives you an edge giving that the rest of your team doesn't have the "i'm X i'm super op *procceed to start a 3v4 at top*" mentality

trust me at low elos i just lost the count of how many tryndas i've seen trying to initiate a 1v4 top "cuz i'm trynda man i gotta fight and can do eet" then procceed to explode and leave my team on a really disadvantageous position, luckily most people seem tor ealize soon enough that trynda isn't exactly a good character when everyone is equally fed and he's gold starved

xNameless 12-17-2012 11:12 PM

Thank you all for your prompt replies (especially hinderlopen for your detailed response).

I understood that holding top + our mid/bot is the optimal combo, and yes my questions were as hinderlopen interpreted; that is, what is the best way to open up an opportunity to aquire top?

I agree that it will definitely be a situation-based response, asking myself the questions like "how many of the enemy team are at top right now/are dead?" and "how quickly can I threaten another tower?"

Here are my general assumptions regarding strategy:

1) if there are 4 enemies fighting/capturing top, and I'm not in a position to assist (as in, my teammates will be dead by the time I get there and I have no global ult like Ez or Panth), then now is a good time to gank bot.

2) it is better to threaten the enemy bot turret than their mid, assuming our bot player is alive and able to help me (this should sound like common sense).

3) If I have the choice backing to defend bot (as when our bot player dies) or ensuring a 4v4 on top, I should choose to ensure 4v4 at top because our bottom turret is more easily re-captured later, and obtaining/defending top is a higher priority.*

*This depends heavily on team composition and likelihood of a 4v4 victory at top turret.

QUESTIONS that follow from these would be:

1) if the enemy ALREADY HAS top, AND there are four enemies at top turret (as what happens when they just capture it), NOW is a good time to threaten their bot turret SO THAT it forces a response from the players top (this is to try and obtain a 3v2 or 4v3 in our favor later)?

2) if the enemy is about to push top, AND one is in the process of capturing our bottom, I should STAY and fight at top and then recapture bot later? (this question is clarification for statement #2 above) Caveat: if we know we will lose top (it's going to be a 2v4), should I fight (and die) to delay their capture of top, or should I save myself and back (losing top) to fight and defend bot?

3) If I had to choose between forcing their mid or their bot, I should (generally) always choose bot? (there are several thoughts that go into this assumption)

Thank you for your assistance :) I like knowing that I'm not the only person who thinks about these things...because when playing the game solo, it sure feels like it :/ Also, I don't peruse the forums often, so I like that my few experiences in the forums are pleasant ones ^.^

-xN


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