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-   -   Class Specific (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2895496)

Struddle 12-12-2012 01:32 PM

Class Specific
 
I would like to see more items based on certain what each person use's item wise. Like ranged only or melee only items. I think it adds a whole new factor in the game that can diversify what a person buys. Like there could be a whole variety of items in the game that change the way you play and make a person choose whether they want a ranged or melee champion.

Ex:
1) Item that reduces incoming damage from ranged sources that can only be used by melee champions.

There are a few more options but I would like to see some items built into the game that would bring out the viability of having Melee carries a bit more. Because currently unless you go top lane or jungle you cannot go bot lane. I love playing melee carries they are my absolute favorite but I rarely ever get to play them and be the true team carry.

A lot of people don't like carrying over from other games but if you look at games like DOTA 2 there is a huge mix of people to pick from ranged to melee and it works. I would like to have more of these options in LOL because right now I don't like being forced to have to go top lane against a tanky dps or get yelled at for farming the jungle instead of ganking the entire time. I like melee carries it's what's fun for me and I'd like to see them more viable either with items or champions.

Beaumains 12-12-2012 05:00 PM

The core idea is interesting (specific items for specific kinds of champs & situations), and niche items do already exist. However, we cannot, and should not, be looking at "games like DOTA 2" - you don't compete by copying.

Struddle 12-12-2012 08:21 PM

Well I was using dota 2 as an example as having a very balanced pool of heros to choose from something of which the LoL pool is severely lacking. Items like BKB allow Melee carries to be viable I was just using that as an example. I would like to see more melee carries in lol and less of the same standard meta that is completely apparent throughout most games.

That was my comparison to dota not that I want the game to be like dota I just want the diversity in carries that dota has. If that makes sense.

Thubgar 12-12-2012 08:36 PM

making items class specific by force is poor design strategy for a game so dependent on choice and experimentation.
there do need to be more melee carry items, but it's better to make them melee-centric through the mechanics than to just stamp "melee only" on them.

statikk shiv is a good example.

Struddle 12-13-2012 11:41 AM

Well there already are melee only and ranged only effective items in the game. I guess what I'm getting at is I wish there was something in the game that made a multiple amount of carries viable and a multitude of different lanes/compositions that could work.

Currently Melee carries are not viable and yet there are a few of them and I find that to be devastatingly annoying. If Riot has a certain type of class in the game why would they bother making them unusable in competitive play.

Which is where my example of DOTA 2 comes in. Melee carries and Ranged carries are on equal footing which is something that makes the play experience in DOTA 2 so awesome. Melee carries in LoL are relinquished to the jungle or top lane and even then they are still rarely ever played and very few actually come out. It's just an opinion and I don't really think omg this needs to come out immediately but it was just a thought and something I'd like to see transfer over since I have such a great time playing both sides of the ball.

Even if it was just an item similar to Stout Shield or Poor Man's Shield that gave melee carries some extra viability to be able to survive harassment it would open up a bunch of greatly different and widely varying possibilities for gameplay changes. Also this could be a strictly early game item like a form of Doran's Shield but maybe with reduced incoming ranged damage but not enough stats that it would be worth keeping in the late game if that makes sense. Even if was a rune or in the mastery tree or something. Would then be usable for everyone and people could actually get it if they were planning on playing an actual melee carry.

It's just a thought and I'm not saying make LoL a Dota clone because that's no fun if I wanna play Dota I go play Dota but I'd like to see Riot make a push to change the meta from just Ranged carries to include Melee Carries as a viability.

Vuther 12-13-2012 02:48 PM

They just don't want to force it.

I personally wouldn't mind to much since I like to play seriousface but some people want to keep doing AP Varus.

Struddle 12-14-2012 05:10 AM

Forced or not it's a portion of the game that is underused simply because of the way the game is currently designed. Like I said I'm not expecting anything immediate and I'm not saying riot needs to get it done now but I would like to see more melee carries and more viability brought out when it comes to them.

Whether it be through items or through runes and masteries. As I said it could just be an item strictly built through early game which wouldn't scale great into late game but would give melee carries the chance to survive harassment it's just a thought on the subject and one that's not necessarily something I was figuring would even be looked at let alone done any time soon if at all.

DarkenDragon 12-14-2012 11:37 AM

im sorry but as im skimming through this thread all im getting is you thinking that melee carrys are not viable? how is that even possible? majority of the champions people are complaining about being OP are melee champions. they have the strongest game at the moment,

makes me feel your credibility is just weak

67chrome 12-14-2012 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thubgar (Hozzászólás 32376428)
making items class specific by force is poor design strategy for a game so dependent on choice and experimentation.
there do need to be more melee carry items, but it's better to make them melee-centric through the mechanics than to just stamp "melee only" on them.

Mostly I'd have to agree with this. LoL isn't designed or balanced around class-specific items, so shifting it to a game that is doesn't make sense for the current itemization. And limiting itemization by class generally always seems less fun and akin to a balancing shortcut - which is more annoying than anything else when you are a class that can optimally utilize an item not designed for you better than the class that has acess to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Struddle (Hozzászólás 32393151)
Currently Melee carries are not viable and yet there are a few of them and I find that to be devastatingly annoying. If Riot has a certain type of class in the game why would they bother making them unusable in competitive play.

That has more to do with how Riot classifies champions than anything else, and what their definition of a carry is. As far as League terminology is concerned, carry = optimal itemization involves critical strikes. Which isn't necessarily true for Dota, were stacking agility, damage, and strength is more or less what melee carries actually do.


Jax, Irelia, and Xin Zhao are more or less Agility-based carries as far as DotA carries are concerned, and Olaf, Garen, and Darius are more or less Strength-based carries.

Basically, half of the common top-lanners are melee carries if you go for what's considered a "carry" as far as DotA uses the term.

I mean, compare Jax to a melee carry like Faceless Void - they are incredibly similar champions in their mechanics.


In the end, EHP and DPS multiply each other, and in DotA carries actually got EHP - Agility grants armor in addition to damage and attack speed, and Strength grants health and regeneration in addition to damage. Likewise, the viable melee DPS champions in League can actually afford to get EHP within their itemization for optimal scaling - were champions like Master Yi, Tryndamere, and Fiora have kits lacking in any flexibility for actually building tanky and feeling good by doing so - their "EHP" bonuses involve avoiding damage outright, and their lack of CC, defensive steroids, or burst means that EHP will generally feel sub-optimal on them and detract from their DPS rather significantly. Which is more of a champion design problem than an itemization one, and any items introduced to help these 3 would likely help out viable "melee carries" like Xin Zhao, Irelia, and Jax significantly more.

Struddle 12-14-2012 10:28 PM

Riots biggest mistake when it came to defining carries which is a huge reason why Melee carries do work in dota 2 is that almost all of the carries in dota 2 (agi wise) have some form of escape. Riot made the mistake in giving ranged carries the ability to escape in itself is a bad idea.

A very important factor that dota takes into account is Range as it's own stat. If you notice with the few small exceptions almost all ranged carries in dota have no form of escape. Out of almost all of the ranged carries only 2 have any form of escape and that's Clinkz and Mirana.

Now look at league of legends what makes the ranged champions so viable is not only their high damage but the fact that most of the played ranged carries at the moment all have excellent escapes. Corki, Graves, Ezreal generally they are the top AD carry picks and it's why even ranged champions like Ashe/Miss Fortune/Varus are not used nearly as much. I could be wrong and way off into left field but it just seems like Riot has almost geared the game to force ranged carries.

As for you Chrome I can't argue with you all of those are valid statements and cannot really find anything wrong with them. Though I would not consider Jax/Irelia/Xin the same kind of carry as a Master Yi or what would be a melee equivalent to a carry. That would be my only argument to what you've said and that's pretty much just being nit picky.


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