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-   -   Dota 2 vs LoL: Why anti-Dota arguments are not valid (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2887603)

The Hobo Lord 12-10-2012 10:02 AM

Dota 2 vs LoL: Why anti-Dota arguments are not valid
 
Before I continue, I just want to say that I'm not a fanboy for either game, my first experience with a MOBA was League of legends (I have arround 800 games played + I've watched some competetive games), just a couple of months ago I started playing a bit of Dota 2 and right now I liked it more (I've played a lot less dota 2 compared to LoL cause I'm waiting to upgrade my PC and watched a **** ton of competetive matches to a point where I can understand everything that is going on)


I'm just doing this post because I get mad when I see some flawed arguments that make no sense. In Dota there are also people that say stupid things about LoL, but there aren't near as much because it's easier for a Dota player to understand LoL than the other way arround (I'll get to that point).



Can we PLEASE have a good discussion once in a while isntead of disliking? If you dislike say what you dislike in my post, and we can discuss it

let's start with the 2 biggest ones (slow and deny):


DOTA 2 IS SLOW AND BORING, DENNYING SLOWS EVEN MORE THE GAMEPLAY AND IT'S DUMB.


1- Let's get this clear: Dota is FASTER then LoL at a Medium or High level. At a lower level LoL is faster because people in pubs people pick 2 hard carries and 2 semi-carries and NO "support" only. In Dota carries in the beggining are more weak then carries in LoL, but they are more strong late game compared to LoL carries. Also, Dota supports have VERY strong cc's. For example, venomancer has a lvl 1 50% slow for 15 seconds(the slow decreases as time passes, but still, that's very strong).

Why is it faster at a higher level? - It's fastter for the simple fact that there is more kill potential. That happens because 1- the towers in Dota are more weak, its not unnusual to see lvl 2 dives, where as in LoL it's VERY difficult to dive at early level's because you will probably die. 2 - there is more "space" between you and the tower. Dota's map is bigger, so that means that people can't just sit under the tower and gain exp, because they are 2 far away.

2- *this is an important one* dennying. When you denny a creep, you are taking away arround 50% of the exp they would otherwise get, and you can also controll the pace at you push or don't push better. In LoL even if u ONLY last hit, eventually you will push a bit the lane, and even if u don't push that much, the guy sitting in his tower can still get 100% of the exp. That said, dennying is almost NON existent at a pub level (people go for last hits and supports generally try to last hit instead of dennying, even with if a team mate is a carry).

3- Everyone knows that this is the thing that slows down the game the most: flash. Flash is the big big problem. People say "Oh, if flash wasn't in the game would be slower and champs like kassa and ahri would be OP". The fact is that 80% of the times flash is used is to avoid beeing killed, not to kill someone. Some people also say that if everyone has flash it's balanced, and no it just doesn't work that way. If I have 100 HP, I flash to turret range, and you can't dive because the turrets are too powerfull, although we both had flash you couldn't kill me. How is that balanced? You outplayed me, I made a mistake and still I wasn't killed. Champs with "flash" can easily get nerfed by having a lot less dmg or a lot less cc. Not difficult.


TL;DR - DOta can be slower at a pub level, but faster at a competetive level. That's because towers do less dmg, map is bigger and there is no flash.



DOTA ALSO HAS "FLASH" AND IT'S WORSE BECAUSE IT HAS MORE RANGE


to me this is a funny one.... The obvious counter arguments to this one would be:
1- CC's are longer, spells make more dmg and on top of that heroes have a lower HP pool compared to LoL's, so if someone gets caught he will be stunned for longger and will be killed more easily.

2- It costs MANA. Yes, you have to spend mana to flash and when you take into consideration that spells are arround 1.5x more expensive and mana pools are WAYYYYY smaller, it's a lot more difficult to use it compared to LoL.

3- It costs MONEY and SPACE. It costs 2150 gold, that's expensive and you have to have that money in your "pocket" there is no "buy 3 items and that converts into a blink dagger". That's a risk because while you could be buying stats you are saving all this money, and you loose money when you die so if you are dying a lot it will take some time to get there. The blink dagger is very much a mid-late game item with the exception of some heroes like sand king, so you cannot escape when you are lvl 1.

4- Yes the blink dagger ONLY works 3 seconds after you've been attacked by an enemy champion. So, that means it's VERY difficult to escape.


TL;DR - The blink dagger costs a lot of money and you need some mana to use it. For most heroes it's bought mid or late game late game, so the early game "passiveness" of LoL is non existent + every time you are attacked the cooldown resets to 3 seconds, so it's difficult to escape.


I DONT LIKE DOTA BECAUSE THE IS NO "B" AND THE SHOPS SUCKS.


This is also one of the most common.

1- In Dota you start with 603 gold and the items that give you stats are cheaper, so you can buy a LOT more regen. I often see people buying boots + tango in dota and that is NOT a viable build, you'll get easily harassed, you will have VERY little regen. So, you have overall more sustain ability in Dota compared to LoL

2- There are also side shops, and if you do it right, you can buy items that latter can be upgraded into items that are sold in the side shops, so that you don't have to run back.

3- There is the courrier, which can bring you ALL the items you want. He can even bring you more potions/tangos, so if you are low on life you can get back to full and not miss exp as long as you've got the money.

4- In LoL you can go back in a couple of seconds, but you have to walk to go back to the lane. In dota you can buy 2 tp scrolls and they will cost you arround 270 gold, each creep gives on average 42 gold, so you need like 7 last hits to get all your gold back + and above all you didn't lost any experience (which is the main thing, beeing 1 min away from the lane is a lot of exp).


TL;DR - In LoL you can go back with b, but you can't go back to the lane (unless u have the summoner spell, but it's not in the meta so no one uses it). So you are (let's say) 30 secs without exp and gold. In Dota you can get regen for cheaper, you have side shops to buy items, you have the courrier to bring u items that are not in the side shop or more regen, and you can buy tp scrolls. Yes they cost money, but it compensates because you get almost as much money as if you spent 1 min going back, and you don't loose exp. It's one of the worst arguments people can have because when you look at it, if you are a DECENT player you won't need to go back often like you do in LoL.


I LIKE THE PROGRESSION SYSTEM IN LOL BETTER

This is one that pisses me off. It's like, you prefer to grind to play the new champion rather than be able to play it right away? In Dota you play the hero you want and you also get rewarded for playing the game because they give you parts to costumize your heroes (it's like receiving free skins, although dota has a problem where they give a LOT of chests.)

DOTA IS IMBALANCED

It might seem imbalanced but it is actually a more balanced game then LoL. Last patch of balance we had was like 9 months ago because dota is balanced differently, and it is a lot easier to balance it. When you hear Dota people saying every champion is op, it's because generally every hero has a spell that is VERY strong and that is only "anti-fun" when you feed or someone feeds because you can't generally do anything about it. To compensate, usually casters are very weak late game, while carries are very strong.


I would also reply to that morello post about "LoL is not more simplistic, it's more clear" but why should I do it? It's like saying that CoD is more "clear" then Counter Strike, therefore it's a better esport. Pathetic.


Give opinions and don't start a fanboy war. I still enjoy LoL, I just think that it could be a much better game if the devs actually fixed some problems like getting flash out of the game, make more interesting champions, and promote pusing strategies

Thank you

---------------Got this post from the EUW forums.

Nick 12-10-2012 05:21 PM

Some posts I made elsewhere:

These are things about the Dota 2 playerbase that I love that the LoL playerbase lacks:

Open to playing with different compositions.
They don't "main" heroes very much.
People are just less self confident and defensive about taking blame.

The 2nd one in particular is actually heavily related to the other two with LoL. There's a lot of randoming going on in Dota because of the minor gold bonus you get as well as general indecisiveness. In LoL not only do people not random, you don't even have more than a few champions that you haven't played several times available to you. As a result people become competent in just a small selection of champions, and can get a bit overconfident about it. When they lose, they start to focus on the other elements, specifically their composition and their teammates. Obviously, its not their fault when they lose with their main. God forbid you make a mistake while using a champion they main.

Now lets look at how this attitude affects your pubbing. When there's a "maining mentality," there's also a mentality that if you're going to stick to a certain champ or role, you might as well use the "best in class." IE if a champion or strategy is extremely OP, you will see it a lot. In Dota, this will be true for a while, because everyone is just a bit curious "Just HOW OP is this?" But after that, most people go back to randoming or playing their favorites. It's certain that Centaur War Runner is a bit too powerful in pubs, but I only see him every 5-10 games or so. That's pretty bearable. If any champ were as strong as Centaur is right now in LoL, you only NOT see them every 5 games or so.

Yes, maining a champ will allow you to play that champ at a higher level. But it does not make you better at the game overall. What you essentially do, is dig yourself into an ELO hole where you can only reliably have fun with a small pool of favorites and easy to use champions. As a new player, where ideally everyone would be testing out the champion pool together, you are playing against a whole bunch of people who have already latched onto a small group of favorites. LoL molds you into adapting this maining mindset just to compete from the very start.

Victory and MMR becomes some kind of be all end all. Everyone just assumes that the higher they go, the more fun they will be having because somehow there will be less idiots or less chance of someone screwing up in their game. This just isn't true. It affects even playing with your friends. You'll always have a friend who cannot play a large variety, and that will in itself restrict the variety of the games you play even in 5 stack.

Although there's nothing inherently wrong with maining, when it becomes the norm like it is in LoL, it's a problem. You have a huge community of players who have not even come close to giving every champ a fair try. This community is full of people who see no reason to do so and at worst, will justify how doing so is a waste of time and will not help them get better at the game. The metric of being good at this game is being good at a role. In this way, players cut off half of the game's possible variety almost willingly. I got somewhat bored of LoL after 6 months but played it actively for another 6 month up until, Dota 2 was released and I only play LoL with friends now.

Well after a year of Dota 2, every game is still exciting and new. The secret? I random. No one yells at me for doing it. In fact some of the people I'm playing against are probably randoming too. While in LoL, people are actually queue dodging if you don't play a champ you have a lot of wins with, Dota 2 players are telling you to play whatever you feel like playing. After 500 games played, I've yet to play any hero more than 20 times. It's a freaking blast. If I want to get good at Invoker, I might have to play a lot of games of just him, but as is, the rest of the pool is my oyster. If I REALLY feel like hard countering something. I can do it. I'm familiar enough with everyone to do so. Feels good man.

Edit: Well that turned out to be waaay more anti-LoL than I expected. I can't say I didn't have fun with LoL. 5 stacks on LoL with friends was more fun than most of the years of WC3 DotA I played. It was frankly a blast. However, when I started playing it really extensively, the wrinkles started showing. I guess I didn't fully appreciate what was missing for me until Dota 2. I'm sorry if anyone is offended about how derisively I refer to the community, but I can't deny that the fact that the general attitude within the LoL community as well as Rune and IP progression, really suppress a player like me who wants to play everything. I don't think that people like me are even a minority, but League of Legends definitely does not nurture the many people who might enjoy randoming. Just like how I can't deny that there were points where LoL was really fun, I must also admit that I resent the community and Riot somewhat for not even really acknowledging the existence of players like me.

Athene 12-10-2012 05:29 PM

i like it.

Jaykoboy 12-10-2012 05:34 PM

I sort of agree and disagree with you on the 'DotA is imbalanced' topic.

IMO, both arguments are true; balance is there, but everyone is OP. For example, some characters have incredible early games, even more so than some League characters, but then the second you hit mid game, unless they got REALLY fed, they drop off like a rock in a deep pool. And then the characters with a strong mid-game come into play, and after they drop off, the carries with their uber-late game come into play. And by come into play, I mean kill anything that isn't a carry or tank that they see first. Usually.

My main problem with DotA that leads to me not playing it as much I play League is, simply put, the game feels too passive. Not slow. Passive. You get that feeling that your jungler is never going to gank, you rely more on occasionally right-clicking and denying then you do on occasionally using a spell, and once you run out of mana, it goes even more into the right-click-to-poke gamestyle.

It bugs me that even Intelligence characters (Mages for Leaguers) have on-hit passives that their kit is mostly made out of, or defensive passives. It just makes me feel like it's useless to cast a spell when I could just click on them and kill them carry style. (I am very much aware that this is a viable playstyle since many Intelligence characters get AD from buying Intelligence, which increases mana regen and mana pool as well)

Also, you get the eerie feeling while you're playing that if you take a couple steps to the right, you'll instantly be blown out of the water by the enemy. Or, at the very least, thrown out of a teamfight that suddenly erupted even though you were certain that everyone on your team was already at their normal roles, and vis versa for the enemies.

It even bugs me that you have to wait for your character to turn around, even though that makes sense. But it's a fantasy video game with a touch of sci-fi; I think they could have afforded to make it a bit less realistic in that regard.

Anyways, those are just my thoughts. I love both games, I just love League more.

P.S: Maining is another 'plus' for me when it comes to League. I'll only explain why if someone asks, though.

Nick 12-10-2012 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaykoboy (Hozzászólás 32297198)
My main problem with DotA that leads to me not playing it as much I play League is, simply put, the game feels too passive. Not slow. Passive. You get that feeling that your jungler is never going to gank, you rely more on occasionally right-clicking and denying then you do on occasionally using a spell, and once you run out of mana, it goes even more into the right-click-to-poke gamestyle.

What you are experiencing is largely attributed to improper itemization and game play at a very low level. It's no secret that if you are extremely untalented at the MOBA genre, that Dota 2 is more punishing, but the skill floor required to have fun in Dota 2 is much lower than people think. I would say it's equivalent to 1400 ELO in LoL. Not high at all.

In my games, the laning phase is just absolutely balls out aggressive. Lots of trading hits and you always have to be ready for their spell. The spell mana costs are large, but when thrown at a perfect moment, the results are brilliant. I often feel like some spells in LoL are just an extension of autoattacks. You kind of just toss it out when its in range, or use it to last hit. Differences in preferences really.

The power progression of carries is also an interesting point. There is a point where you feel very powerful, but its no different from LoL when you are winning hard. Two teams who have nearly even farm will both have LOTS of tools to deal with carries. Itemization, and remembering to use them on the fly is extremely important in Dota. Ghost Sceptre in particular is a late game support item, that is an absolute game changer. It renders carries almost useless against you, but makes you more vulnerable to the Int heroes.

So yea, I'll concede that the Dota 2 you played is not something that you prefer over LoL, but I still think there's a level of Dota 2 that you are missing out on. Obviously not everyone has the time to reach that level, but I can assure it's very rewarding and exciting.

Jaykoboy 12-10-2012 06:08 PM

Yeah, Ghost Scepter is fun as heck. I'm more of a Heart-of-Tarresque guy, though.

And in DotA2, I don't get punished. I just get bored. It's easy to not get dunked on, and that's the problem. Some of (not a huge chunk, just some of it) the point of DotA2 is that when you catch someone out of position, you have permission to dunk on them without a moment's notice. But since it's so easy to stay in position in DotA2, it's pretty easy to spend an entire game (at least for me) just going like 'OK...so where's this infamous dunking I've heard of? I mean, really, it's just...wow. Top is feeding. Hm. Guess it's over there then.' I am, literally, the most AVERAGE person; I won't have high CS, but not low, I'll have a pretty even K/D, I'll have a few denied creeps in my history, and overall I'm pretty much a support.

Also, just a tangent I forgot to mention in my primary post; I don't like how some spells are duplicates of others. I believe Anti Mage and Queen of Pain both share an identical blink spell, and there are similar similarities (redundancy FTW) between other characters.

poe tay toes 12-10-2012 06:10 PM

i enjoy dota less, that's the only thing that matters to me

Nick 12-10-2012 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaykoboy (Hozzászólás 32298422)
Yeah, Ghost Scepter is fun as heck. I'm more of a Heart-of-Tarresque guy, though.

And in DotA2, I don't get punished. I just get bored. It's easy to not get dunked on, and that's the problem. Some of (not a huge chunk, just some of it) the point of DotA2 is that when you catch someone out of position, you have permission to dunk on them without a moment's notice. But since it's so easy to stay in position in DotA2, it's pretty easy to spend an entire game (at least for me) just going like 'OK...so where's this infamous dunking I've heard of? I mean, really, it's just...wow. Top is feeding. Hm. Guess it's over there then.' I am, literally, the most AVERAGE person; I won't have high CS, but not low, I'll have a pretty even K/D, I'll have a few denied creeps in my history, and overall I'm pretty much a support.

Also, just a tangent I forgot to mention in my primary post; I don't like how some spells are duplicates of others. I believe Anti Mage and Queen of Pain both share an identical blink spell, and there are similar similarities (redundancy FTW) between other characters.

You see, I have the same problem with LoL. I feel like ganking in LoL is so tediously difficult, that most of the time it's not really worthwhile and you just try to farm up instead. At certain points in the game, the map is just lit up like a Christmas Tree, and there's nothing like Smoke to counteract it. Flash has been discussed to hell, but even after flash there are so many champions that have their own psuedo flashes.

When you factor in TP support, and reduced night vision, you start getting some pretty bloody teamfights in Dota 2 pretty early on. Even more importantly, Blink Dagger and Force Staff as items allow you to become an initiator if your team lacks a great one. Skeleton King is a great example of this.

Redundancy is something you can certainly find problematic, but I feel like the most important thing to consider is redundancy in hero impact and counter play. Playing with and against QoP and Anti are vastly different despite sharing a skill. All Riot really does is add small extra effects to reduce redundancy of a skill, but I've been on this forum long enough to know that even LoL players have started to notice a lot of redundant elements. My theory of why people are growing more discontent with champion designs is because even though the champions may be very different to play with, the way you play against them and the items you buy do not vary much. How much do you really change your gamplay between fighting a Cait, Graves, Trist, Corki, Ez, ect? Not very much. The way you fight Void, Anti, QoP, PA, Rikki, ect are vastly different though.

The Hobo Lord 12-10-2012 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poe tay toes (Hozzászólás 32298477)
i enjoy dota less, that's the only thing that matters to me

Its important to articulate your feelings b/c there is some hidden logic behind them. Otherwise you're just like a girl who is all emotion and no rationality. Apologies if you are a girl. Get back in the kitchen.

Nick 12-10-2012 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Hobo Lord (Hozzászólás 32305053)
Its important to articulate your feelings b/c there is some hidden logic behind them. Otherwise you're just like a girl who is all emotion and no rationality. Apologies if you are a girl. Get back in the kitchen.

Yea, his comment really doesn't contribute much, but it's pretty reflective of the community as a whole. A lot of us very heavy gamers don't realize that a lot of LoL players don't have enough time to get good enough at LoL for it to be all that fun let alone, get good enough at Dota 2 to make it more fun than LoL.

It's why I only recommend playing Dota 2 to some of my LoL friends. I get asked whether or not they should try Dota 2 by my college friends pretty often. My first response is "How much LoL do you play?" Invariably, if it turns out they don't play much at all, and aren't very good at LoL to begin with, I tell them "It'd take you too long for you to have more fun playing Dota 2 than LoL."

But yea, if you play a buttload of LoL, and I know a lot of people on this forum do, Dota 2 scratches itches you wouldn't know were there if you never played DotA before. It's just something you have to trust me on. Things like screen zoom, turn speed, and cast animations become quite normal to you. I know when I went from LoL to Dota 2 they fustrated me, but it didn't last long.


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