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-   Twisted Treeline (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=49)
-   -   The altars are the problem, solution to fix this map entirely inside (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2863767)

PurpleURP 12-04-2012 09:15 AM

Poll: Altars vs Buff Camps
 
Riot Nome,

After my initial resistance to the new map, I have been playing it quite a bit in recent weeks. The number one issue I have with the new map is the altars. The altars are what gives the new map such a different feel from the old one, why some people call it Twisted Dominion. I understand that the altars are the solution to the problem of bruisers dominating this game format by whoring all the buffs and getting way ahead. It's not like bruisers don't still dominate the format regardless of the changes made. Frankly, I think the altars don't add anything positive to this gaming experience. The game has turned into controlling the altars because the two altar buff is so powerful rather than pushing towers and team fighting. The altars have actually made the games last longer because of this fact.

My solution, which would win a lot of the old TT players back to this map, is just get rid of all three altars entirely. The game shouldn't be decided by who is in the right position when to cap an altar, it should be decided by winning lane and team fight cohesiveness.

After a lot of though, what really made the old map awesome was the buff standoffs at red and dragon, which don't really happen on the new map because of the total lack of buffs and vile'maw's web. My solution is to replace each team side altar with a buff camp located in the same spot in a C shaped ridge that looks like the red buff camp in SR complete with brush. Each team C's entrance would face their nexus wall. You could also reintroduce flash over the wall dynamics that I found incredibly fun in the old map in a non-exploitative way as they aren't going from lane to lane. The buff could be the old green or a new buff entirely. You'd also replace the center health relic with a red, nerfed old grey buff, or a buff that gives the current two altar increased 10% ad and ap and gives global team gold (80g). The 3g per minion kill for controlling one altar could just be incorporated into the map global passive.

This one change would make TT 1000% times better map. People could actually full time jungle with the additional camps and buffs without simply walking around in a triangle, ganking and then repeat. This change would take advantage of all the new jungle items that are release with S3, so a vayne and other non-meta junglers wouldn't be totally out of the question. There would be a laning phase again, and buff steals would be a real thing. People would still have the neutral camps and center buff to fight over, increasing if anything the amount of fighting on the map.

Even more importantly, this solution would also allow for wards to be reintroduced to the map. The C shaped neutral camp would block vision of half of each teams side of the map, so it would require more wards (at least 3) to see the whole side. Having no wards was just more frustrating than anything. I understand why, with the altars, you couldn't have wards; with one ward you could see the whole movements on the side of the map. With the C shaped buff camp, however, that is no longer the case. Quite frankly having no wards is just sending the wrong message entirely.

So, Riot Nome, you rascally dog, please consider these changes. It would make this map so much better. You would finally get people to stop complaining about the new map changes and would make the new map a better TT, not a horrible replacement.

TL;DR change both altars and the health relic to buff camps, would make full time jungle and the map in general much better and allow for wards to be reintroduced

picture done with paint so you can get a sense of what I'm talking about:

http://imgur.com/0IXbbTO

Key: the light grey are bushes, blue are walls, dark grey is pathway
B = buff camp, W = wolves, G = golums, WR = wraiths, VM = vile'maw, MB = mini boss, S = shop

davidmcdavid 12-04-2012 11:19 AM

bump. I want full time jungle to be more fun and interesting. I'm tired of quibbling over altars when we should be pushing turrets.

OwnerOwnerson 12-04-2012 12:56 PM

I couldn't disagree more. I love the alters and how it adds an entirely new strategy to the game. The alters create tons of team fights. And creates other fight when you race to the other side to try and capture their alter before they spawn. You can easily full time jungle with how the map is set up now. Especially if you use the alters correctly.

All the things you want is just to have the old map and game play style which has gone horribly stale in my opinion. Im very pleased with how rapidly they have been changing the map already. Removing the brush by the alters and now changing the alter vision will be huge. Not to mention the items and death timer changes that will greatly help this map as well....

Reynmaker 12-04-2012 01:09 PM

I both like the altars, and think that they are a noob trap. On aceing the enemy team, I tend to push objectives such as turrets while my teammates more often than not rush the altars. On being aced, I rather enjoy seeing the enemy rush the altars and not my turrets, giving me time to respawn and defend. The altars are not the problem on the map, as always, it is the players' thought process that is the problem.

IM SO HIGH MAN 12-04-2012 02:38 PM

I think they should remove the altars, and put a blue buff where each altar was. Then put 1 red buff in the middle. That way each team is gaurenteed a buff, while having to fight for the red buff, which only effects 1 champ anyways.

Toxic Spark 12-04-2012 04:50 PM

I feel like they could keep the altars if they removed vision from them and the movement boost/pad. That makes the lantern more useful and doesn't light up half the jungle. Otherwise, I'd rather they just add buff camps.

Shadeykris 12-04-2012 05:49 PM

I'm not really fond of the altars either, I'd prefer a mini-SR style map (much like old TT) over capture points. However...

It doesn't seem like much on the surface, but Riot put a lot of work into the altars. Not just art assets and the fact that they were the main "fix" to TT balance, but... There are a lot of special voice lines that deal with Lore, depending on which champions secure it. The altars are a unique method of delivering story into the League of Legends experience, and for this reason, I feel Riot will be very reluctant to outright remove them from the map.

Les Nomerables 12-05-2012 10:09 AM

Over the next few patches, we're going to be implementing a series of changes that should address some of the points you've listed.

If all goes well, 1.73 should allow for altar captures to be interrupted temporarily by damage. This will allow ranged champions to stop captures without putting themselves in danger. Note that this will primarily address 1v1 or 1v2 situations in which the "1" feels helpless; in larger teamfights, it'll just mean you have to dedicate one or two players to stop the harassment.

1.74+ will see the removal of speed shrine, replacing it with something to be decided. Additional evolution of altar capture rules and rewards will occur as well. I'm not convinced that there are any small number of changes that can allow wards to be re-introduced, but we are looking into options. Stay tuned :)

Jpeg 12-05-2012 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotNome (Hozzászólás 32117771)
I'm not convinced that there are any small number of changes that can allow wards to be re-introduced, but we are looking into options. Stay tuned :)

What are your opinions on beta clairvoyance (was basically a ward)? this or allowing lantern or some other item that has a 1 ward charge.

Eryn 12-05-2012 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotNome (Hozzászólás 32117771)
Over the next few patches, we're going to be implementing a series of changes that should address some of the points you've listed.

If all goes well, 1.73 should allow for altar captures to be interrupted temporarily by damage. This will allow ranged champions to stop captures without putting themselves in danger. Note that this will primarily address 1v1 or 1v2 situations in which the "1" feels helpless; in larger teamfights, it'll just mean you have to dedicate one or two players to stop the harassment.

1.74+ will see the removal of speed shrine, replacing it with something to be decided. Additional evolution of altar capture rules and rewards will occur as well. I'm not convinced that there are any small number of changes that can allow wards to be re-introduced, but we are looking into options. Stay tuned :)

First off, PurpleUrp, you did a good job making your point. Well written and well argued.

Secondly, RiotNome, I think that change to the altar makes sense, however, it doesn't really address the issue that people have with them, namely not wanting the altars to exist.

I was a firm supporter of this new map ever since it was available to the testing servers, but as time has gone many of my friends and teammate's have quit playing 3v3 solely because they dislike the feel of the new map. Well known players like Lixalollipop, TeddehFreddeh, Virus, and ProJeddy have stopped playing entirely.

I really enjoy the new map, I think it's great fun. However, in a competitive aspect it feels very... boring. The altars take away from the game more than they add to them. The amount of times I've heard "Wait, don't fight! They have both altars!" in skype in the last two weeks is mind blowing. And the fact that it's relatively easy for one team to send 3 members to the other team's altar, cap it, and then for the next 90 seconds win any team fight they choose to, and as such roam around clearing jungle and forcing people on the other team to quit farming and back away to their tower (as their is no wards to see when this 3 man gank squad with a 10% AD and AP is coming) causes for very stale game play. I think that PurpleUrp's idea of putting a couple buff camps there is a good one. Also having more walls, and allowing for wards, would be wonderful.

Replacing the altar with buff camps would also lead to a more reasonable level 1 invade. On the old Twisted Treeline, level 1 invades were done to steal either the enemy's middle camp, or their top camps. It was a very risky invade to do as the enemy could be hiding in the bush and could be able to focus-fire their abilities on you or your teammate's before you saw them. However, the design of the old map allowed for three separate level 1 invades to be done, from three separate angles (not including top invades), and as such made the level 1 invade very intense for both teams. On the current Twisted Treeline, their isn't much reason for a level 1 invade other than to start what is usually a bloodbath, and then lead to imbalanced lanes, and one team being able to capture both altars 4.5 minutes into the game. If there were buff camps than a level 1 invade would be a stronger idea. Just because people rushed the bottom bush in Old TT at low levels of play doesn't mean that it was a valid strategy and should be the norm on the Current TT.

TL;DR
Map is fun. Altars lead to stale gameplay. Would love more jungle camps, walls, and wards.


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