League of Legends Community
1234511 ... 26

League of Legends Community (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/index.php)
-   General Discussion (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Riot; If I showed you that your Trynd remake was bad, would you change it? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2858712)

Norak 12-02-2012 07:27 PM

Riot; If I showed you that your Trynd remake was bad, would you change it?
 
I've posted these thoughts many times, but over the course of many replies in many threads. I also haven't really been active on the LoL forums recently thanks to the bug where you can't login to post (and also laziness due to giving up hope a little). I'm back and I'm going to do my best to stop this from being a wall of text that you guys don't want to read. I would rather you read the whole post and downvote than not read the whole post and upvote, in all honestly.

Now, onto the topic at hand, Trynd is in a bad spot. He has been since his remake. This is even moreso for my playstyle of Trynd which I'm sure 99% of you have either forgotten by now, or just plain weren't here for. It was AP Trynd. I know this is going to draw a lot of people straight to that angry little red thumb down the bottom, but there's honestly no use hiding it. If it makes you feel any better as reader, I'm not just here on AP Trynd's behalf. AD Trynd has it hard too.

I'm just going to go balls deep and say it outright: The Trynd remake was bad. He lost synergy in his kit, he became less fun and less active, and in the same breath made him less reliable (when the changes were done to apparently make him more reliable). I'm not just pulling information out of my ass, I can back this up with facts and evidence, and I will.

Let's start with his passive/Q (I bunch them together because they basically got swapped). Previously, his passive gave him crit chance based on hp and his Q gave him AD/Crit damage with stacks. The synergy this had was that when you got stacks on Q, you knew your damage increased by a linear amount; you knew exactly how much more your auto attack and spin would do. You could account for this and use it to harass early game. Also, gaining crit chance with how low hp you are means you gain stacks faster when you are low hp, which means you gain more opportunities to heal when you are low hp. This makes sense, doesn't it? Lower hp = Bigger chance to crit = Bigger heals.

After the remake: His passive gives him crit chance based on his "stacks", yet it still requires him to crit to stack effectively. Wait so, he need crit chance to get his crit chance steroid? Yeap. The lack of Synergy is strong in this one. The only other champion I can think of that does this is Volibear, except he only needs 3 auto attacks to get his attack speed buff and it stacks much faster (25%/50%/75%) and reliably. On top of this design flaw, we look at his reliable damage in lane. Now when Trynd is in lane he relies on chance to deal damage. With max fury he gets crit chance, rather than AD, so when you harass in lane, you are effectively "Crossing your fingers" and hoping for a crit to win the trade. Also, you gain bonus AD when you're low hp, which means your spin and auto attacks deal reliably more damage when you are low hp. Who in their right mind ever uses spin for damage when they are low hp? Not even in late game, you save it to get away after you ult, especially with the cooldown increase.

We're still not done with Q. That's right, there's more. It's cooldown is now so long that you can't use Q to heal, surviving for a bit longer, before you ult, then Q again. To be honest, this hurts AP Trynd more, because lategame AD Trynd won't survive that much longer with just 1 Q, but it's still a huge problem for AD Trynd pre-30 minutes. The addition of a flat AD bonus to his Q makes trynd so much less active. You have less to think about and he truly moves that much closer to becoming just a "right click champion"

Let's skip straight to his spin, because the W nerfs were necessary and/or neglibile. Pre-remake his spin had an ok base damage, low-ish cooldown, dealt magic damage and it scaled with 0.5 Total AD. What did this mean? He had a decent damaging ability early game. Now Trynd's more so have to use E to get into range for auto attacks, as the damage on it is so low and the cooldown is so high, that you are only putting yourself at a higher risk to get ganked by the jungler if you spin over them/behind them to deal it's (very mediocre) damage. The cooldown increase made him much more susceptible to jungle ganks, but that's the least of his problems. Also, he's basically become Riven since his spin was changed to physical; stack armor and you win vs Trynd. (This hurt me more than anything else. I played him like an AP Carry, an AP carry can't do physical damage. You're not doing your job if you deal physical damage)l

"But how do we fix this? If you think Riot's remake was so bad, you'd better have some good ideas yourself..", and I'm pretty sure I do! I will show a couple of my fellows Tryndamere players (they play him AD, unlike myself, so their opinions won't be biased) these changes and ask their opinions, and in the meantime I want you to judge my thoughts.

Minimal changes:
Bloodlust:
- Cooldown reduced from 12/12/12/12/12 to 13/12/11/10/9
- Base heal decreased from 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 + 0.5 / 0.95 / 1.4 / 1.85 / 2.3 per 1 fury consumed to 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 + 0.45 / 0.90 / 1.3 / 1.75 / 2.2 per 1 fury consumed
Spinning Slash:
- Base damage increased from 70/100/130/160/190 to 20/70/120/170/220
- AD Ratio changed to 0.5 total AD from 1.2 Bonus AD
- Damage type changed to magic

How does this address his problems?:
By reducing the cooldown on Q, Trynd's can effectively Q-ult-Q combo again, this leaves more room for skilled players to time their abilities better, rather than everyone having to do the exact same ult-Q (notreallyacombo) combo. Decreasing the base heal prevents Trynd from snowballing in lane by just outsustaining. The numbers may need to be tweaked, but I've done the math and I'm pretty happy with the resulting balance.

Spinning Slash is basically reverted, except the cooldown increase. In it's current state it's so boring to use. By increasing changing the damage type, you can't just stack armor and take no damage from Trynd in lane (Thank you, Shen). Riven can get away with being 100% physical because she is so lane dominant, with high damage, mobility, utility (CC) and shields.

What I think should really happen:
Battle Fury:
- Now gives 5% crit chance per 10% missing health, with 5% base crit chance.
Bloodlust:
- Cooldown reduced from 12/12/12/12/12 to 13/12/11/10/9
- Max fury now 80 (note, this also means smaller heals with max fury)
- Now gives 3/6/9/12/15 Attack Damage + 1.5 per 5 fury generated
Spinning Slash:
- Base damage increased from 70/100/130/160/190 to 20/70/120/170/220
- AD Ratio changed to 0.5 total AD from 1.2 Bonus AD
- Damage type changed to magic
OR
- Base damage increased from 70/100/130/160/190 to 50/100/150/200/250
- AD Ratio changed to 1.0 Bonus AD from 1.2 Bonus AD
- Damage type changed to magic
Undying Rage:
- Now gives 40/60/80 fury when activated.
- Fury gained by Undying Rage reduced by 50% if cast whilst hard CC'd.
- New passive: Gives Trynd 10/15/20% Critical Strike Damage
- Passive now doubled when Undying Rage is active


How does this address his problems?
In these changes I've tackled every problem; his lack of synergy, his (slightly) boring playstyle (due to being less active and having less uses for his abilities) and I've added an obvious counter to him. Hard CC is meant to counter all champions, if Trynd is going to get significant buffs such as these, then he needs a more obvious weakness; one that he can share with other champions. By reducing the instant fury gain, not only are you decreasing his ability to deal damage, but you're decreasing his heal. So he has to stay and fight you with weakened damage, or heal with a smaller heal.

His fury is so much easier to read for both the enemy and the person playing Trynd. 100 fury was just an arbitrary number used because it looked clean. 80 is much easier to work with as you don't have to work as hard to figure out the bonus you are getting from the fury. Also, it's a simple number nerf for Trynd without adjusting all the values at once.

I've done the math on all these changes and I am very satisfied. I will link this thread to all the other Trynd players I know for their opinions. Please feel free to post your own opinions here, but I would like for you to read the thread before doing so (if nothing else just read the changes and the TL;DR).

TL;DR: I hate these things, but I've thrown a wall of text at you, so I guess you deserve one. Trynd's remake was bad. He lost all Synergy, multiple uses of his abilities, combos, he's less fun and active and he's not a decent pick in today's lineup. These are the changes I would recommend for to fix these problems.

Thanks,
Norak.

[EDIT] The proposed ideas that are in bold are changes that I have made to the previous ideas that I had, reasons are the following.
I reduced the bonus AD gained from Trynd's Q to make way to the changes made to his ultimate.
Tryndamere was always the "crit king", adding up to a whopping 36% Critical Strike damage at level 9, just from his Q. This was too strong and encouraged some Trynd players to start with full crit damage runes and brawlers gloves, hoping to get a lucky crit and 1-shot their opponent in laning. By keeping the Critical Damage and putting it on his ultimate, not only does he start getting the crit damage later on in the game, he is limited to his amazing crits during his ultimate. This also gives Trynd players a real reason to put ranks into their ultimate.
Change to ulimate, courtesy of MarineRevenge, changed by myself.

Dingding123 12-02-2012 07:41 PM

As a fellow tryndamain, I'd never object to an overall buff to his kit.

However, what do you suggest he gain from leveling Undying Rage? You haven't seemed to address that.

I learned to max Q and W before I put that 2nd point in Undying Rage a long time ago.

PS: btw, I do AD jungle trondomore. I find top lane lame in general, despite who I use. Besides, he's got pretty grand mobility in the jungle with his Spinning Slash, he gains free HP just by roaming around and spamming Q, he can totally bypass the lifesteal and creep damage from Wriggle's with a Doran's Blade, lifesteal from masteries and a Zeal, he can start with boots+3, clear by around 3:30 AND stick around for awhile afterwards, and that 4-second ranged AoE slow is awesome for ganking. He's linear, sure, but he's loads more fun than any other champ I've ever played with anywhere. He's just so much more exciting. <3

Norak 12-02-2012 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dingding123 (Hozzászólás 32025104)
As a fellow tryndamain, I will never object to an overall buff to his kit.

However, what do you suggest he gain from leveling Undying Rage? You haven't seemed to address that.

Personally, I learned to max Q and W before I put that 2nd point in Undying Rage early on.

Cooldown Reduction, and I might modify the fury gain too. A Trynd without an ult is fairly easy to take care of, so the cooldown reduction is a big thing, but I'll see if I can add something in to make it more rewarding.

Thanks for the feedback.
[EDIT] Changed the fury gain, if I can think of anything else I will. Maybe making the % less fury scale down instead? Or making it scale down too?
[EDIT] Added scaling crit damage.

Map Awareness 12-02-2012 07:46 PM

This is a lost cause pal, play AP Xin instead and forget Trondomere even existed.

Norak 12-02-2012 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anemianator (Hozzászólás 32025270)
This is a lost cause pal, play AP Xin instead and forget Trondomere even existed.

It's not just the AP build, I love Tryndamere as a champion in general, even I built him AD sometimes. I've made posts for over 18 months about this, I won't give up easily. Riot has posted in many of the threads, but nothing has come through just yet.

ShadowTheX 12-02-2012 07:51 PM

Bump

Godsend 12-02-2012 08:11 PM

I skimmed through the topic, but I just wanted to say that I do recall Tryndamere being borderline op after his remake. Even played in a couple tournaments, till he got toned down.

HolyPikeman 12-02-2012 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norak (Hozzászólás 32024626)
Thanks,
Norak.

I cannot +1 the OP's post enough. The passive change is required (5% base crit at 0 fury). It would make him a decent jungler, and let him possibly rush an avarice blade (which riot says most melee carrys should for season 3). I'd like to see a 5%-10% speed increase when ulting and I think E should have a better ratio, but remain physical dmg.

I'd like to see either an ad ratio on his heal or even a better ap ratio...

HolyPikeman 12-02-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telekenetic (Hozzászólás 32026111)
I skimmed through the topic, but I just wanted to say that I do recall Tryndamere being borderline op after his remake. Even played in a couple tournaments, till he got toned down.

He got mega nerfed twice since then...its funny, he was only op at low elo, thus the nerfs...yet Riot has said lots of times that Darius is OP at low elo, but Morello said "low elo will have to get used to Darius".

So buff Trynd back to useable in mid to high elo!

Call Me Fabled 12-02-2012 08:32 PM

Well thoguht out, seems like it'd really help tryndamere, +1 for you good sir. Lets hope Riot sees this!


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:53 AM.
1234511 ... 26


(c) 2008 Riot Games Inc