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-   -   Double PD vs 1PD 1LW (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2835946)

IcyPhoenix1 11-24-2012 11:01 PM

Double PD vs 1PD 1LW
 
So was doing some math on these thoughts

DPS = damage per second, meaning attack speed and crit and crit damage
DPS is used in All-In battles, like team fights, example Graves auto attacking in a team fight

Poke would be Damage per Hit, for example Jayce shooting his canon, and how much damage that 1 shot does

So the math NOW shows that at 200 Armor,1 IE+ 2 Phantom Dancers barely does less DPS to a target than 1 IE + 1 PD + 1LW.
But at 100 Armor hands down does more damage

Armor Penetration goes in this order
1 Armor Reduction (capable of taking below 0)
2 Armor Penetration
3 % Penetration gets factored last

percent penetration is multiplicative not additive, so 10% mastery Weapon Expertise + 40% Last Whisper = 46% Reduction, After the -6 from Sunder Mastery

Link to screenshot of the math on a graves, using AD runes, and 19-11-0 Standard ADC mastery

It also shows how terrible Bloodthirster DPS is, due to the lack of crit damage, even at full stacks it does Way less damage
AD marks spreadsheet
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7976/loldamage.png
Armor Pen spreadsheet
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/4269/loldamagepen.png

please discuss, and if you find errors with the math, please let me know
Also, keep in mind, the idea is to ADC late game with auto attacks, where abilities start doing less than auto attacks as the ADC, or at least should be


Edited Nov 25th to correct a formula error
Credit to Amatzikahni, thx for correcting my formula
Updated link as well


Edited Nov 25th to reflect ExectuionerKen's argument
Since you have to kite, you will not get full uptime of the high attack speed
And, the LW adds more damage to Buckshot + Ulti, which is AoE so doing more total damage
Thx and Credit to ExecutionerKen

I will now be using 1 PD 1 LW

Drcheeseit 11-24-2012 11:37 PM

Seems legit... Tbh I prefer the double pd. I main cait atm and with a full build (bes greaves, BT, PD, IE, LW/Mallet, PD) I destroy people with up-to 1800 crits. I will try switching the LW with PD and seeing how.that flies... Mathematically and utility-wise it should be better by far. I used to get double PD regardless and ignored LW and generally did well but people began raging at me in-game for not building it and not carrying their feeding selves. Also... No I almost never get GA ~ If people are concerned with my build

ExecutionerKen 11-24-2012 11:46 PM

1. LW is much better on champions with skills that is well scaled by AD, such as Graves's buckshot and ultimate

2. Why would you go 19/11? thats not standard, the standard is 21/9/0 or 21/2/7 or 21/0/9

3. BT provides big lifesteal, thus the reason why it is good because it allows you to lifesteal back into fight quick.

4. It is relatively easy to pass 200 armor as well.

IcyPhoenix1 11-25-2012 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen (Hozzászólás 31791688)
1. LW is much better on champions with skills that is well scaled by AD, such as Graves's buckshot and ultimate

Late game when you auto attack 2-2.5 times per second, using buckshot is a dps loss, unless you are using it for AoE purposes. Skillshots cannot crit, and you will be at 93% crit with Elixir and 260% damage mod on that crit. Essentially you are getting off 700 crits, 5-6 of them in 2 seconds, way way more damage on a single target (focus firing)

Your job as the ADC is to wait for your team to initiate and bring the pain, you should never be infront doing the poking, thats just asking to be picked off. Leave that to a Jayce for example, with a BT + LW for huge cannon shots etc.
Once the fight starts, if you can only safely attack 1 target, auto attack it for max damage. If their team clumps up nicely, you Buckshot + Ult to lower the AoE cluster down a nice chunk, then pick your targets wisely to Single Target down with Autos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen (Hozzászólás 31791688)
2. Why would you go 19/11? thats not standard, the standard is 21/9/0 or 21/2/7 or 21/0/9

I used this as a recommendation by wingsofdeath from watching his stream. His ELO is probably higher than most people commenting here. His reasoning is that executioner is barely ever used during laning phase, because targets will not stick around if they are that low. And if you are good, you do not need executioners help for last hitting and the extra damage reduction helps a lot during laning phase, which allows you to .... well, trade better and win those mini battles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen (Hozzászólás 31791688)
3. BT provides big lifesteal, thus the reason why it is good because it allows you to lifesteal back into fight quick.

Bloodthirster fully stacked gives me 20% lifesteal.
My standard build is 2 dorans into IE and then sell 1 Dorans for the vamp scepter or keep both Dorans and the 1 Vamp Scepter.
1 Dorans + 1 Vamp scepter + 2% from masteries puts me at 15% lifesteal.

6531 damage over 10 seconds to a target with 100 Armor with 15% lifesteal = 980 Vamp (IE+PD+PD+Dorans 3% +Vamp Scepter 10%+ 2% Mastery Vamp)
4017 damage over 10 seconds to a target with 100 Armor with 25% lifesteal = 1005 Vamp (BT20% + PD + LW + Dorans 3% + 2% Mastery )

as you can see the fully stacked BT, only heals for 25 more health, over 10 seconds. However the IE + PD + PD does 60% more damage over 10 seconds. This is hands down better.
Also, you will die, very few games does the ADC not die, so if you ever need to engage in a fight without having time to stack up the BT or if your enemy has you pinned in your base and controls your jungle, the BT just starts to plummet even harder. Even fully stacked it does not compare to the other build. (obviously IE + PD + PD is more expensive)

IE + PD + PD = 9520 gold
BT + PD + LW = 8135 gold

Not taking into account the price of the builds however, where the BT + LW is A LOT cheaper, we are talking about max ideal late game DPS.
Obviously certain situations will need to be adapted to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ExecutionerKen (Hozzászólás 31791688)
4. It is relatively easy to pass 200 armor as well.

It is on certain heros, but you will usually only encounter 1 target per match with 200+ armor (sometimes) and even then, its the same amount of damage, if you look at the chart.

Now, not arguing that bruisers like Jayce and Riven should go IE, no way. They have 4 skillshots that do not crit, and PT would give them the most damage using those abilities.
Also a last whisper would give jayce more poke per hit, if thats the team comp.

We are talking about ADC, who auto attack late game to carry.


Think of how core Rab cap is on AP carries, its a 30% bonus to AP. not to straight damage. Most champs have around a 0.7~ AP ratio to damage.

As ADC's we gain 50% bonus damage from IE, and 10% from Weapon Expertise.
Now this is ONLY when we crit, but with IE + PD + PD + Elixir, we are sitting at 93% crit and are auto attacking 1.99 per second. Essentially 2 attacks per second.
In other words we have a 93% chance to deal 60% bonus damage, at a 1 to 1 ratio on auto attacks, which is massive.

I am also not saying skip the defensive item of choice, no way. Just saying IE + PD + PD > beats> IE + PD + LW.

This also make sense when we look at the prices
Infinity Edge (IE) 3830 Gold
Blood Thirster 3000 Gold
Phantom Dancer 2845 Gold
Last hisper 2290 Gold

again, all games require adaptation to the circumstances, but trying to show that if all goes well, and you are on your way to achieve your max potential late game to carry, you should be going IE + PD + PD for max auto attack damage output.

Also, lets try to post proof in this discussion, not just repeat the same arguments we have heard over and over again, without proof that we take for granted.

Amatzikahni 11-25-2012 11:44 AM

Against Thornmail, a second PD will do more damage than LW, but you'll be getting mitigated out of a lot more damage meaning that lifesteal is even less effective. You can easily die lategame to yourself if you don't negate some of that armor with LW (and GA/QSS for the MR). Also, it's true that the standard build provides a lot less AS than optimal, but the benefits of the other useful stats/passives from BT, IE, and LW far outweigh the increased damage output of optimizing DPS per gold. By standard math, having around 260-270 AD means that the most gold efficient route for items requires 2.500 AS before getting any more AD, yet very infrequently do I ever see anyone go above ~1.8 AS without lots of boosts (steroid ability, elixir, ally buff like Nunu's BB). Item choices are for usefulness/utility, not just maximum DPS. If that were the case, you would never see an ADC grab boots, and IE + 2xPD would be standard due to the ~90% Crit Chance which is optimal for around 200 AD.

In the end, I don't think that LW will be taken out of the core build. It was heavily nerfed from the previous +40% AS, but having someone who can leech back crazy amounts of health will allow more total damage to go out compared to someone who crumbles and gets zoned out of a fight.

EDIT: Actually, now that I've begun to do the math, I realize that your math is very wrong. I'm redoing your math right now to determine how far off you are and I'll post the numbers when I'm done.

EDIT2: Done; see next post.

Amatzikahni 11-25-2012 12:03 PM

dps, 100 armor, 200 armor
886.37 - - 466.5 - - 316.6
670.07 - - 435.1 - - 322.1
511.81 - - 332.3 - - 246.1

So IE + PD + LW does more damage to a 200 armor target than IE + 2xPD. I didn't factor in the flat 6 ARP into my calculations, but it's a very small adjustment so I just wanted to save time by skipping it.

Somehow, you got 12k, 8k, and 6k for raw DPS (x10) and the actual figures are much lower. I think you're applying crit incorrectly, so I'm trying a few permutations to see how you got those numbers.

EDIT: Got it; you factored the crit as (crit multiplier + 1) which actually assumes that you're getting 360% extra damage on crits, not 260%. Normal attacks do 100% of damage, and Critical Strikes do 260% of normal damage, so the modifier is [(added crit damage * crit chance) + 1], or [(160% * 0.85) + 1] which is 236% normal damage per attack by factoring out crits. This would make sense since you're critting almost constantly (85% of the time) which would make your normal attacks almost constantly 260% damage.

In other words, you're very often hitting for 260% damage and only infrequently hitting for 100%, so 236% is the normalized amount per strike. My numbers use this crit-normalization while your numbers actually assume a much higher crit that's not normalized.

IcyPhoenix1 11-25-2012 12:21 PM

Cool thanks. I knew I probably messed up the crit mod and chance. I'll adjust the excel sheet and correct my error once I'm home. I will also add in the 6 flat penetration which you didn't just to be accurate as these small things do make a difference. I will also address one thing where you are wrong with regards to life steal once I get off this iPhone.
But thanks for correcting my math error there.
Will reply later with the corrected and updated version.

IcyPhoenix1 11-25-2012 12:35 PM

So just to make sure before I adjust this.

Lets say BT + PD + PD
it would be 60% chance to crit and a 210% crit mod.

So it would be (110%*0.6)+1. So 166% modified damage correct?

IcyPhoenix1 11-25-2012 12:53 PM

For fun

Buckshot
Shoots 3 bullets in a cone each dealing 200dmg +(0.8) of AD. Enemies hit by multiple bullets take 35% damage from each additional bullet.

Lets do math on a bruiser with 100 armor.
IE + 2x PD = 211 damage and 54% damage taken.
So 200 + (211 * 0.8) = 369.
35% per additional bullet, 2 bullets =
129 damage per additional bullet.
So 369+129+129= 627 this build does 54% damage to 100 armor target
So 339 damage for a point blank buckshot with IE + PD + PD

Now with IE + PD + LW
200 + 0.8 of AD. So 251 * 0.8 = 201
So 401 + 2 bullets at 35% damage each so 140 per additional bullet

So 401 + 140 + 140 = 681.
This build does 66% damage to 100 armor bruiser.
So 449 point blank buckshot with the IE + PD + LW

Lets do auto attacks in both builds now

IE + PD + PD has 211 damage which with crits gets normalized to 236%
This comes out to be 498 per auto Attack at 54% damage taken we do 269 damage per auto to a bruiser with 100 armor.

339 point blank buckshot
269 auto attack
We do 1.78 attacks per sec in this build
In 5 secs we do 9 autos so
2421 damage in 5 secs from auto attacks.

Now with LW and PD.
251 AD and we do 66% damage.
We have 55% chance to crit and the 260% crit damage.
So (160%*0.55)+1= 1.88 normalized damage.

So 251 * 1.88= 472
Now adjusted for 66% damage gives us
311 dmg per auto attack.

So for IE + PD + LW
449 point blank buckshot
311 dmg per auto attack
1.42 auto attacks per sec
In 5 secs we do 7 auto attacks
So 2177 dmg in 5 secs from autos.

IcyPhoenix1 11-25-2012 01:35 PM

Summary

IE + PD + PD

339 point blank buckshot
269 auto attack
We do 1.78 attacks per sec in this build
In 5 secs we do 9 autos so
2421 damage in 5 secs from auto attacks
15% vamp gives us 363 life back over 5 seconds
Total damage from buckshot and 5 secs of autos
= 2760

IE + PD + LW
449 point blank buckshot
311 dmg per auto attack
1.42 auto attacks per sec
In 5 secs we do 7 auto attacks
So 2177 dmg in 5 secs from autos
15% vamp gives us 326 life back in 5 secs
Total damage from buckshot and 5 sec of autos
=2626

for clarification, all these calculations are assuming Berzerker Greaves on the ADC


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