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-   -   Current Conditions of Blackfire Torch and Wooglet's Cap (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2817077)

Quintic 11-18-2012 11:29 PM

Current Conditions of Blackfire Torch and Wooglet's Cap
 
Everyone knows Torch is much too powerful for what it is, on top of also being implemented alongside the advent of the new Wooglet's, is ruining Dominion.

Blackfire Torch-

Grants more damage than any other rushed item, on top of a little bit of extra tankiness. Everyone who uses a single amount of AP grabs it and does tons of damage with it. It procs off of DoTs, and things that shouldn't even be considered spells, e.g. Zyra's plants. I'm okay with an item that can burn, but the current burn is much too sustainable and quite ridiculous.

Solutions?

I have a couple in mind.

First, the burn should scale with AP. As it stands, the amount of damage it can throw out in a fight as a standalone item is a bit much. This would be more understandable if this only activated off of the initial impact of a spell, but with things like Amumu's Tears, Singed's Poison, and god forbid, Teemo's Mushrooms, it can last upwards of a million hundred thousand seconds. This could be rectified with a few things.

1). Reduce the stats on the item.

20 Magic Penetration is awfully potent, when compared side by side to other items. Boots and Abyssal themselves give 20, and can be stacked on top of a second Haunting Guise, giving far too much penetration, turning AP into early to mid game true damage machines. I suggest lowering this amount, maybe give Visage 10 Penetration, and Torch 15. Currently, it gives the same Penetration to Magic as Youmuu's does to Armor, while being easier to itemize. Currently, it gives Health, MPen, AP, Cooldown Reduction, and a strong Passive for a cheap amount. It's everything an AP wants contained in one item. There is no choice to be made.

2). Make the burn more controlled.

Currently, 25 stacks is a huge amount, and unless you're in a prolonged team fight, you're not going to run out of stacks. Right now, the passive may as well be "Your magic damage causes burning." Stacks are negligible. There are a couple things that could be changed about this.

-Increase the amount of stacks used per second of burning, or make it ramp up the longer targets are burned, akin to mana usage on a Swain or Anivia ult.

-Decrease the amount of stacks storable.

-My current idea, make the burn scale with AP, but turn the passive into an active. Something such as "For the next 10 seconds, you spells cause [x]% maximum health damage over [y] seconds. Cooldown: 20 seconds." Have the torch be charged upon hitting targets with a spell or an attack, and use the active to start charge consumption. This would prevent random teemo shrooms, hyper long poke-burn wars, and negligible harrass such as a tanky singed's poison doing hyper damage upon barely being exposed. Having the item scale with AP would also prevent it from being a "must have, rush item."

3.) Change how the burns activate

Currently, the burn refreshes itself with every tick of a DoT, making the burn last much longer than it should, on top of being activated by spells that shouldn't activate it to begin with, such as Teemo's Shrooms and Zyra's Plants. Change the passive to only start on the initial tick of a DoT, and on spells directly cast upon champions, instead of being usable on summons and traps.


Wooglet's

I have to wonder why this item was changed, and why it was introduced to Dominion at all. This item requires no thought on purchase, unlike Zhonya's. It's hyper efficient in terms of AP, Armor, and a sick passive AND active. On top of that, but it compresses builds by an entire slot. Before, Zhonya's was a choice that had to be made, and helped a few people survive or work (Kennen, Morganna, Fiddlesticks). Now it greatly increases the power of any AP, makes them tankier, and gives them a get out of jail free card. I have to question why this was released alongside Zed, as it is the single one item that makes him completely useless to anyone who has it. Completely cancels the damage on his ult, and nullifies the entire concept of his character. I'm honestly not sure how to fix this one; Rabadons and Hourglass were split into two different items to begin with, and the fact it was recombined boggles me.

Why were these items brought out without AD Caster items even in consideration? If there was a patch to release new AD Caster items, it would have been this one, with the release of a new AD Caster. Instead, the above two items have nullified the prospect of bringing a caster outside of Pantheon (maybe Riven) into Dominion.

Please leave some feedback and discuss, I believe this is a problem the community can help Riot fix, and should not be sticking around until the next patch, as it's already degrading Dominion as it is.

Quintic 11-19-2012 12:00 AM

To add a little bit of math, here's the stat breakdown of Blackfire Torch and Wooglet's Cap.

Blackfire Torch
+250 Health
+70 AP
+20 Magic Penetration
+15% Cooldown Reduction
+Passive Burn

To break down the costs, we can figure out how much each point of statistics is worth. For AP and Health, we can look at the most expensive basic item divided by it's cost.


Giant's Belt - 430 Health - 1110 Gold

This comes out to roughly ~2.58 gold per health.


Needlessly Large Rod - 80 AP - 1600 Gold

This comes out to 20 gold per AP.


Now we need Cooldown Reduction, where the purest form of it comes from Boots.

Boots of Speed - 350 Gold.
+50 Movement Speed

So each point of Movement Speed costs 7 Gold.

Ionian Boots of Lucidity - 1050 Gold.
+70 Movement Speed
+15% Cooldown Reduction

Replacing Movement Speed gives us:

Ionian Boots of Lucidity - 1050 Gold.
+70 (7 Gold) = 490 Gold
+15% Cooldown Reduction

Which leaves 560 Gold for Cooldown Reduction. Each point of Reduction costs ~37.3 Gold.


Similar to Cooldown Reduction, the easiest way to obtain flat Magic Penetration is also boots.


Sorcerer's Shoes - 1100 Gold
+70 Movement Speed
+20 Magic Penetration

Substituting Movement Speed gives us


Sorcerer's Shoes - 1100 Gold
+70 (7 Gold) = 490 Gold
+20 (Magic Penetration)

That leaves 610 Gold for Magic Penetration, giving us about 30.5 Gold per Magic Penetration.

Now, we can combine all of these into the Blackfire Torch, and see how much the Passive costs.

Blackfire Torch - 2950 Gold
+70 (20 Gold) = 1400 Gold
+250 (2.58 Gold) = 645 Gold
+15 (37.3 Gold) = 559.5 Gold
+20 (30.5 Gold) = 610 Gold
+ Passive: Burn

The stats alone amount to 3214.5 Gold, which means you don't pay a thing for the Passive. In fact, the Passive would have a negative value, meaning it's just bonus in an item that's already highly cost efficient for the amount of stats one slot gives. This, compounded with the fact that the AP can be multipled by Masteries and Wooglets, plus having the capacity to sit on a Kage's Lucky Pick, gives an extreme amount of power for relatively little cost.

TL;DR

Torch is hyper cost effective. The stats alone make up for the price, the passive costs nothing, it's a one slot wonder with every stat you could want on a caster. There is currently no reason to rush anything else.

If anyone disagrees with my math, please let me know. I'll do Wooglet's next.

Volandum 11-19-2012 12:10 AM

Are you aware that a nerf for Blackfire torch is already planned and being executed?

Quintic 11-19-2012 12:22 AM

Now for Wooglet's


Wooglet's Witchcap - 3500 Gold
+100 AP
+50 Armor
+Passive: +25% Total AP
+Active: Invulnerability

From the previous post, I am going to keep the assumption that each point of AP costs 20 Gold.

For Armor, we can look at a Chain Vest


Chain Vest - 700 Gold
+45 Armor

Pretty straightfroward, this yields that each point of armor is worth ~15.6 Gold.

For the tougher parts, we're going to have to extract values for the passive and active, using Rabadon's Deathcap, and Zhonya's Hourglass.


Rabadon's Deathcap - 3600 Gold
+140 AP
+Passive: +30% AP

Substituting in AP gives us:

Rabadon's Deathcap - 3600 Gold
+140 (20 Gold) = 2800 Gold
+Passive: +30% Total AP

This means that 30% increase in AP is worth 800 Gold, so each percent increase is valued at ~26.7 Gold.

Now for Zhonya's Passive


Zhonya's Hourglass - 3100 Gold
+100 Ability Power
+50 Armor
+Active: Invulnerability

Nearly the exact same stats as the Witchcap, but for sake of completion, I will solve for the active the same way as everyting else.

Zhonya's Hourglass - 3100 Gold
+100 (20 Gold) = 2000 Gold
+50 (15.6 Gold) = 780 Gold
+Active: Invulnerability

So the Active comes at a cost of 320 Gold.

Replacing these into Wooglet's gives us


Wooglet's Witchcap - 3500 Gold
+100 (20 Gold) = 2000 Gold
+50 (15.6 Gold) = 780 Gold
+Passive: +25 (26.7 Gold) = 667.5 Gold
+Active: 320 Gold

So Wooglet's Witchcap has a total of 3767.5 worth of stats IN ADDITION to compressing builds from two seperate items into one item. They're giving you gold to combine the items, and gives a massive boost to mid game play.

TL;DR

Wooglet's has 3767.5 Gold worth of stats on top of compressing builds. Gives a massive power boost mid game without any thought of what item path to go on. Makes every glass cannon more tanky, and gives a free "get out of jail" card.

Please, look at these items Riot. I believe stats need to be reduced, cooldowns on passives increased or implemented, and/or Wooglet's being split back up in two items. These two items are doing the same thing to Dominion AP characters that AD carries suffer from. Why bother going other damage paths if you can always rush two items (Either Infinity Edge + Phantom Dancer or Blackfire Torch + Wooglet's Witchcap) and not have to plan much else after that, except for maybe some tankiness or a %Penetration item. These two items alone already turns every AP into a damage powerhouse with a chance to invulnerable if tried to burst, along with providing tank and sustained damage in fights.

Quintic 11-19-2012 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volandum (Hozzászólás 31592155)
Are you aware that a nerf for Blackfire torch is already planned and being executed?

I am aware, but this should be hotfixed, not waited upon for another 1-2 weeks. Especially for players who solely play Dominion, and realize the effect it has on it.

Tempestphile 11-19-2012 12:23 AM

Is it me or i think wooglets is ok??? It's very strong, but seeing what else is coming in S3 for bruisers / AD carry.... it's ok.

On the other hand, BFT is receiving nerfs, new one looks like to be -5 MagPen, -5 CDR, -7 stacks and 3.5% every 2sec. - this is not finalised yet

Quintic 11-19-2012 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempestphile (Hozzászólás 31592390)
Is it me or i think wooglets is ok??? It's very strong, but seeing what else is coming in S3 for bruisers / AD carry.... it's ok.

On the other hand, BFT is receiving nerfs, new one looks like to be -5 MagPen, -5 CDR, -7 stacks and 3.5% every 2sec. - this is not finalised yet

To be honest, if Wooglet's is going to be okay when the other items are introduced, why not introduce it with the other two items? It confuses me why these two items alone were introduced ahead of time.

My issue with it is it allows extreme item build compression for a relatively cheap price.

Are you familiar with Guild Wars 1 PvP, and Elites that did similar things to builds? It reeks of that.

Zeiro 11-19-2012 12:33 AM

Because they were for the revamped TT?

TT/Dominion is more of Nome's field.

Tempestphile 11-19-2012 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quintic (Hozzászólás 31592417)
To be honest, if Wooglet's is going to be okay when the other items are introduced, why not introduce it with the other two items? It confuses me why these two items alone were introduced ahead of time.

My issue with it is it allows extreme item build compression for a relatively cheap price.

Are you familiar with Guild Wars 1 PvP, and Elites that did similar things to builds? It reeks of that.

The main reason is because they are still "working" on it, the new items when wooglet and BFT was ready. and RIOT wanted to give us a sneakpeak (or nightmare)

3500 is not that cheap (and the cost will go up slightly too next patch) and the need to build from a needless large rod prevents it from being rushed.

Also yes it frees 1 item slot compare to the old zhonyas + AP item, but how often do you get a full build in a Dom game?

Quintic 11-19-2012 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tempestphile (Hozzászólás 31592528)
The main reason is because they are still "working" on it, the new items when wooglet and BFT was ready. and RIOT wanted to give us a sneakpeak (or nightmare)

3500 is not that cheap (and the cost will go up slightly too next patch) and the need to build from a needless large rod prevents it from being rushed.

Also yes it frees 1 item slot compare to the old zhonyas + AP item, but how often do you get a full build in a Dom game?

It's not uncommon to get 2-3 built items. Fuller builds are also possible in longer, more evenly matched games. Now they've removed a choice, you no longer have to choose between buffing your nukes with a Cap, or getting survivability with a Zhonya's. Now, you can get the best of both worlds for a relatively cheap amount. I would also argue that Backfire Torch and Wooglet's weren't ready for release, especially considering how much flak Blackfire Torch is recieving. I don't like the idea of Dominion being used as a guinea pig, considering that for a good portion of people, Dominion is their mode of choice.


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