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-   -   Season 3 (Indirect) Hecarim Nerfs (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2812811)

GangstaBlasta 11-17-2012 06:26 PM

Season 3 (Indirect) Hecarim Nerfs
 
First of all, if you are going to post about how I play hecarim and how it is not as good as your build/rune+mastery set-up, leave now. If you really care that much about how I play hecarim, look at my runes and masteries, and go ahead and watch some replays ive uploaded onto LoLrecorder. Anyway...

My source for this post is...
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2012/11...=1353045163593

this discusses the changes expected in season three. items, masteries, etc.

What I've noticed is it is going to make hecarim very challenging to play, mostly early game, but all throughout the game. and here is why,

First of all, every champion is going to be given an extra +25 base movement speed, and tier 1 boots (boots of speed) will only give +25 movement speed. Although that is not a huge deal, hecarim's passive only works with BONUS movement speed, meaning the extra base +25 movement speed will not add extra damage to his passive. This means hecarim will lose 2.5 base attack damage at level one, from boots alone.

Secondly, I would like to point out that (at least when I play hecarim) I get Force of Nature for my magic resistance (along with merc treds, and runes.) The reason I got that item is for the magic resistance, AND for the movement speed. This will decrease his passive damage later on in the game.

Third, Zeal, Trinity Force, and Phantom Dancer are all getting their movement speed reduced. I do not think I have ever built Phantom Dancer on Hecarim, but I absolutely love Trinity Force on hecarim. Literally every single stat Trinity Force offers benefits hecarim, but now the movement speed is getting reduced.

Lastly, the new masteries kind of force hecarim to go 21 points into utility to get the extra 3% movement speed. 3% really does add up for hecarim, 4.5% on runes, 3% on masteries, flat 70 from boots (merc treds), shurelias reverie active, his E, ghost (with the ghost mastery point) and then movement speed from Trinity Force, AND Force of nature made hecarim really hit hard. But, since TF got nerfed, FoN got taken out, the 3% is a sacrifice to get.

Although, the new masteries to provide an extra 2% movement speed early in the utility tree, it only applies to when you are out of combat. This does nothing for hecarim's passive.


On top of that, the jungle is getting harder for all junglers, and I'm saying it will be especially hard for hecarim. I know riot wont see this but I really hope they do.

Maybe there is more that I am missing, and if so feel free to let me know.

I... suggest that maybe hecarim's Q should do full damage to jungle creeps to make up for his reduced early game damage. And maybe change up his passive to make his movement speed really work for him because in season three, I feel as though it really is not going to be doing much


...Thoughts?

Alaidya 11-17-2012 08:31 PM

Oh god... -.-

A passive does NOT make a champ. Heca's passive has NEVER been great, it was decent to just get a little bit of silly AD just for building basic boots but you're building him very wrong if you're building him for MS just because he gets a minimal amount of AD for it... You build a zeal bc it builds into TF, and Heca uses ALL the stats for it, you don;t build it bc it has MS. You build a FoN bc of the redic regen and the highest amount of Mr on a single item, not for the MS. These aren't really "nerfs" they're just balancing these items around other things. Heca wont be hit that hard if you build him correctly.

Rakaydos 11-17-2012 08:41 PM

Hectarim is melee, so he'll make full use of the new Mercurial Saber. Active gives +100% (!!!) movespeed, which for hectarim is a 30-40 damage steroid.

Sir Longfellow 11-17-2012 08:49 PM

You missed a few things though, higher base MS means higher values from % MS, which is why the % MS values on items are being reduced. Additionally, FoN isn't really super great on Hecarim except as a endgame item and even then it's not the great to where it's a indirect nerf.

Onimus Terlain 11-17-2012 08:50 PM

The return on damage for Hecarim was never really worth it to build tons of MS anyway.

His passive is a nice bonus, but it shouldn't be built around.

I honestly don't think this will be that noticeable when all's said and done.

OdiIon 11-17-2012 09:57 PM

First off I'd like to say I agree with virtually everything said on the first post of the front page. This is another thing.

To all the supposed "Hecarim" players, calling his Passive "Not that good", it's clear to me you

A) Don't play Hecarim.
B) Play or Know Hecarim at all, to assume that his passive "Isn't that great" simply disgusts me to see people think this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaidya (Hozzászólás 31553075)
Oh god... -.-

A passive does NOT make a champ. Heca's passive has NEVER been great, it was decent to just get a little bit of silly AD just for building basic boots but you're building him very wrong if you're building him for MS just because he gets a minimal amount of AD for it...

No Hecarim player in their right mind builds Hecarim flat MS. You've also got to be joking, Hecarim's Passive almost defines him as a champion, and you do know that the AD scales before the MS soft caps correct? The reason's he can gank so well and effectively? That unit collision ignorance + minor AD buff. An example of a S2 MAX BUILD Hecarim would be,

Merc Treads, Trinity, FoN, SR, Randuin/Frozen Heart, IE.

Of which, 4 items grants bonus MS. Mercs give +70 Flat MS(17.5 AD) Right there is 20% MS from TF + FoN.

So typically you'd have with only merc treads,
320(+70) Base MS with no bolstering effects as Heca.

With MS Quints and Masteries you're up to~ 426.2 MS
At level 18, with only merc treads, you have + 27.25 AD. Just for having tier 2 boots.

Now this time with TF + FoN you're up to(After a even harder soft cap)~483.5 MS
At level 18, with masteries and quints int the equation this is now worth 46.75 AD which is greater than the value you'd receive from a BF sword, would you like to say again that this Passive is not great? Let's not forget he has this AD buff ALL THE TIME.

Even while using Devastating Charge + Ghost + SR, you can obtain a value of 146.15 bonus AD on your next few blows.

Seeing how all boots lose 25 MS Mercs are now as +45 MS(11.25AD). There are dozens of changes to MS. Losing FoN is huge, and if anything i'd like NOT to build a wraith collar on Hecarim as much as it fits the theme.

Furor will most likely be the ideal enchant on Heca's boots. 12% Decaying MS, but MS nonetheless, so it's almost essentially a pre-nerf Trinity.

Not so silly when you do the math is it? If you want I'd be more than glad to post the work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaidya (Hozzászólás 31553075)
You build a FoN bc of the redic regen and the highest amount of Mr on a single item, not for the MS.

If I had to choose between Banshee's Veil or FoN on other Junglers such as Darius or J4, I'd indefinitely take Banshee's. Why? Because it gives the bubble, but why not on Hecarim? Because Hecarim uses all 3 of those stats obscenely well. 99 times out of a 100 will Hecarim choose FoN over Banshee's BECAUSE of he MS. The HP5 + Heca's W just keeps him alive almost in all aspects of any team fight, even after taking a Nuke to the face, Heca can just keep trucking it out because of his W, his W is simply game breaking with FoN.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alaidya (Hozzászólás 31553075)
These aren't really "nerfs" they're just balancing these items around other things. Heca wont be hit that hard if you build him correctly.

Read the title "Indirect Nerfs", just as these aren't directed towards Hecarim by name, they affect him regardless. Just as the dozen new mana items can be considered "Indirect Buffs" to Singed and Ryze.

Edit: Mercural Scimitar is a fantastic item for Hecarim if it's Price wasn't so high close to TF.

The damage for Mercural Scimitar is almost broken on Hecarim. Let's say we're using my build, and S2 items haven't changed and they've just added the Scimitar.

(320 Base + 70 Merc Treads) x (100% + 40%[Shurelya's Reverie] + 30%[Runes Masteries Trinity Force FoN] +27%[Ghost] +75%[Devastating Charge] +100%[Scimitar]
[(390) x (3.72) x (0.5)] +230 = 955.4 This is Hecarim's current Movement speed, for 1 second if done correctly.

955.4-320 = 635.4 Bonus Movement Speed.

635.4(0.25 Warpath Passive) = 158.85 AD Bonus for 1 attack. This value is the highest AD value imaginable in the game granted for 1 devastating charge attack.

So let's do this one last time.

258 AD + 158.85 AD = 416.85 AD - 107(Base AD) = 309 AD

Before armor mitigation, your Q now deals 190 + 309(0.6) = 375.91 damage.

Skipping all of Devastating Charge's work. Assuming your tiny target is a plant by the name of Zyra with a meager 65 armor(39% Dmg Reduction).

360(Base AD) + 309(Total Bonus AD) x (0.39) = 408.09 +229.305 (Rampage after mitigation) + 638.2125(Critical AD strike after mitigation + TF) = 1275 damage.

I'm pretty sure Devastating charge is not an on-hit, rather it applies a knockback upon it and falls under a different category.



Two things, I wrote this at 3AM. Another thing, I'm not sure if Hecarim's E can crit but you know. It's fun to watch outrageous numbers that can probably never happen.

Despite these changes, Hecarim will most likely lose out on 10%+ MS tops, which is horrible.

Autocthon 11-18-2012 03:21 AM

Unless I'm remembering wrong there are multiple new MS items.

GangstaBlasta 11-18-2012 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autocthon (Hozzászólás 31560643)
Unless I'm remembering wrong there are multiple new MS items.

Most do not synergize well with hecarim since hecarim still needs to be tanky, since he will be in the middle of the fight, trying to kill their carry, if doing his role correctly.

GangstaBlasta 11-18-2012 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OdiIon (Hozzászólás 31555404)
First off I'd like to say I agree with virtually everything said on the first post of the front page. This is another thing.

To all the supposed "Hecarim" players, calling his Passive "Not that good", it's clear to me you

A) Don't play Hecarim.
B) Play or Know Hecarim at all, to assume that his passive "Isn't that great" simply disgusts me to see people think this.



No Hecarim player in their right mind builds Hecarim flat MS. You've also got to be joking, Hecarim's Passive almost defines him as a champion, and you do know that the AD scales before the MS soft caps correct? The reason's he can gank so well and effectively? That unit collision ignorance + minor AD buff. An example of a S2 MAX BUILD Hecarim would be,

Merc Treads, Trinity, FoN, SR, Randuin/Frozen Heart, IE.

Of which, 4 items grants bonus MS. Mercs give +70 Flat MS(17.5 AD) Right there is 20% MS from TF + FoN.

So typically you'd have with only merc treads,
320(+70) Base MS with no bolstering effects as Heca.

With MS Quints and Masteries you're up to~ 426.2 MS
At level 18, with only merc treads, you have + 27.25 AD. Just for having tier 2 boots.

Now this time with TF + FoN you're up to(After a even harder soft cap)~483.5 MS
At level 18, with masteries and quints int the equation this is now worth 46.75 AD which is greater than the value you'd receive from a BF sword, would you like to say again that this Passive is not great? Let's not forget he has this AD buff ALL THE TIME.

Even while using Devastating Charge + Ghost + SR, you can obtain a value of 146.15 bonus AD on your next few blows.

Seeing how all boots lose 25 MS Mercs are now as +45 MS(11.25AD). There are dozens of changes to MS. Losing FoN is huge, and if anything i'd like NOT to build a wraith collar on Hecarim as much as it fits the theme.

Furor will most likely be the ideal enchant on Heca's boots. 12% Decaying MS, but MS nonetheless, so it's almost essentially a pre-nerf Trinity.

Not so silly when you do the math is it? If you want I'd be more than glad to post the work.



If I had to choose between Banshee's Veil or FoN on other Junglers such as Darius or J4, I'd indefinitely take Banshee's. Why? Because it gives the bubble, but why not on Hecarim? Because Hecarim uses all 3 of those stats obscenely well. 99 times out of a 100 will Hecarim choose FoN over Banshee's BECAUSE of he MS. The HP5 + Heca's W just keeps him alive almost in all aspects of any team fight, even after taking a Nuke to the face, Heca can just keep trucking it out because of his W, his W is simply game breaking with FoN.



Read the title "Indirect Nerfs", just as these aren't directed towards Hecarim by name, they affect him regardless. Just as the dozen new mana items can be considered "Indirect Buffs" to Singed and Ryze.

Edit: Mercural Scimitar is a fantastic item for Hecarim if it's Price wasn't so high close to TF.

The damage for Mercural Scimitar is almost broken on Hecarim. Let's say we're using my build, and S2 items haven't changed and they've just added the Scimitar.

(320 Base + 70 Merc Treads) x (100% + 40%[Shurelya's Reverie] + 30%[Runes Masteries Trinity Force FoN] +27%[Ghost] +75%[Devastating Charge] +100%[Scimitar]
[(390) x (3.72) x (0.5)] +230 = 955.4 This is Hecarim's current Movement speed, for 1 second if done correctly.

955.4-320 = 635.4 Bonus Movement Speed.

635.4(0.25 Warpath Passive) = 158.85 AD Bonus for 1 attack. This value is the highest AD value imaginable in the game granted for 1 devastating charge attack.

So let's do this one last time.

258 AD + 158.85 AD = 416.85 AD - 107(Base AD) = 309 AD

Before armor mitigation, your Q now deals 190 + 309(0.6) = 375.91 damage.

Skipping all of Devastating Charge's work. Assuming your tiny target is a plant by the name of Zyra with a meager 65 armor(39% Dmg Reduction).

360(Base AD) + 309(Total Bonus AD) x (0.39) = 408.09 +229.305 (Rampage after mitigation) + 638.2125(Critical AD strike after mitigation + TF) = 1275 damage.

I'm pretty sure Devastating charge is not an on-hit, rather it applies a knockback upon it and falls under a different category.



Two things, I wrote this at 3AM. Another thing, I'm not sure if Hecarim's E can crit but you know. It's fun to watch outrageous numbers that can probably never happen.

Despite these changes, Hecarim will most likely lose out on 6-to-9% MS tops, as awful as it may sound.


thanks for explaining the math to the *****es

Rakaydos 11-18-2012 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OdiIon (Hozzászólás 31555404)

Merc Treads, Trinity, FoN, SR, Randuin/Frozen Heart, IE.

I DONT play hectarim, or have a PBE account (was deleted while I was in afghanistan)
so take what I say with a grain of salt, but theorycrafting here...

Are you getting the shureillas for the early philo mana regen? with the new elysia's miracle, it might be worth going for that instead, de-slotting it, and filling that item slot with a Yoomus Ghostblade- Same Movespeed, longer duration, and stacks with a shurellias used by your support player.
FON of course doesnt exist, but since we're building for burst movespeed anyway, that can be the slot for Quicksilver Sash->Mercurial Saber
And of course tier 3 boots, and quints working off a higher base movespeed...

I expect that a FULL BUILD Hectarim will actually come out slightly ahead on these changes, at least for burst movespeed.


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