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-   -   @Riot/Xypherous/Those who care about DFG (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2798367)

RageAge 11-14-2012 08:55 AM

@Riot/Xypherous/Those who care about DFG
 
To quote a recent post from xypherous about DFG:
Quote:

DFG is a special case, because it's a case of geometrically scaling AP ratios, due to being a % health nuke.

That is, if I halve your HP with DFG, I need half the spells to kill you. And this rises with AP. The more powerful DFG is, the less spells I need to kill you rises at a geometric rate.

This is what caused it to be hard to balance. Basically, by doing a % of your health in damage, you drastically reduce the power level needed of other spells to kill you. But AP was causing this to double scale in a way that wasn't linear - thus the difficulty of balancing DFG.

Put another way - DFG was another % amplifier onto your attack, while linear scaling ratios are simply another linear additional onto your attack.
In short, this post means (at least how i took it) that because DFG scales off of two things (AP and target HP) it is difficult to balance, which lead to it being heavily nerfed.

My question then is why on earth was DFG nerfed the way it was? it used to be a nice CDR/AP/supplemental burst item which fit very well with non-mana hungry or manaless mages, as well as those with % health based damage. The issue it brought from what i saw before the nerf was the late-mid/late game instakill potential it brought. Rather than nerfing the scaling it had however, the CDR was removed and mid game power was reduced, but the scaling (the problem) was actually increased.

And now we're left with a still moderately problematic but much less effective husk of an item, which is moderately effective on burst mages, but outclassed at most points in the game by other options. DFG is the new old evelynn in item form

Meanwhile, nearly every CDR item that is reasonably attractive to AP champions has a large mana regen portion attached to it, making a significant amount of the gold invested in the item go to waste.

My proposition is that the nerfs be reverted (CDR returned, base damage returned or even increased) but the AP scaling be HIGHLY reduced. like... to 1% per 100AP, or perhaps even remove it completely. As DFG scales with opponent HP it really doesnt need the AP scaling to be an effective item late game while at the same time it wouldnt be super OP mid game like a flat damage equivalent of 30% end game HP would be. At the same time AP champs who dont want mana regen could get a little CDR without feeling silly, making everyone happy.


A bit of a wall of text, sorry bout that.
TL: DR: DFG nerfs didnt hit the right things, mages without mana issues want a CDR item again. Give DFG back its CDR and base %HP numbers and hit the AP scaling instead.

Ghyrt 11-14-2012 08:59 AM

I feel exactly the same way. Mages have poor CDR options now.

RageAge 11-14-2012 10:35 AM

exactly. it gets even worse if you look for CDR not involving mana.
If we look at fully built CDR items we get:
Athene's unholy grail: the (un)holy grail of mana regen items, definitely for casters
Frozen heart: Huge amount of mana, and defensive stats. definitely a tank item
Morello's evil tome: MP5, situational counter active, caster item
Nashor's tooth: MP5, AS. wierd stats, not really a typical caster item
Randuin's omen: armor, health, AS/MS debuff. tailored to someone right in the fray, and hardly counts as a CDR item to begin with
Shurelia's reverie: mana and health regen, health, neat MS active. fine on anyone who doesnt need to build damage
Soul shroud: health, CDR and mana regen aura. supportish item
Spirit visage: MR, health, regen increases. a fine defensive item, but really more for people with some regen already, not a great item on its own
Youmuu's ghostblade: AD, armor pen, crit, AS/MS active. neat bruiser item
Zeke's herald: health, LS/AS aura. AD supportive item

so... if you're a caster who doesnt want mana or mana regen, you get...
spirit visage. sort of.

I understand limiting CDR on highly sustained/manaless champions, but their kits should be balanced for their spammyness already, shouldnt they? If mana independentness is already considered in the damage/strength of the skill, why is it being counted against us again when it comes to itemization?

mordekaiser/evelynn/vladimir/ect. are sad.

Kevin 11-14-2012 12:41 PM

Its actually a simple fix

DFG-

x2 400 AP Books + 1200 Recipe (Upgradeable Recipe may be purchased 5 times)

- 5/10/15/20/25 Cool down % reduction
- 10/15/20/25/30% Magic Pen
- 400/500/600/700/800 Magic Damage when targeted
80 Second Cool down

Kabas 11-14-2012 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryukyu Wild (Hozzászólás 31415000)
Its actually a simple fix

DFG-

x2 400 AP Books + 1200 Recipe (Upgradeable Recipe may be purchased 5 times)

- 5/10/15/20/25 Cool down % reduction
- 10/15/20/25/30% Magic Pen
- 400/500/600/700/800 Magic Damage when targeted
80 Second Cool down

An upgradeable item simply by buying into it more. Now that's something I can get behind.

Cavulan 11-14-2012 10:04 PM

I have no idea why DFG had it's cooldown removed. I really never got that. I'd expected the active to receive a heavy nerf.

All my manaless counters frown riot. ALL.

xGOLDENNx 11-15-2012 03:43 AM

I completely agree with this post, without the CDR on the DFG, i'm finding myself fairly item restricted with no-mana hungry ap champs

RageAge 11-16-2012 06:15 AM

From the new PBE update

Deathfire Grasp
Item Cost: 3000
Recipe Cost: 965
+100 Ability Power +15% Cooldown Reduction
UNIQUE Active: Deals 15% of target champion's maximum Health in Magic Damage then amplifies all magic damage they take by 20% for 4 seconds - 60 second cooldown.

seems like xypherous probably knew how people were going to take it when he mentioned that, lol. while i dont get the "take 20% extra magic damage" part, as the problem was that it reduced the power needed from your other skills to kill someone in multiple ways, and this does it much more directly, i am certainly ok with the change :D thoughts?

BrutalBrianna 11-16-2012 06:23 AM

I can hope that in time.. it'll happen.
My Ahri and LeBlanc.. :c

IonDragonX 11-16-2012 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RageAge (Hozzászólás 31488054)
while i dont get the "take 20% extra magic damage" part, as the problem was that it reduced the power needed from your other skills to kill someone in multiple ways, and this does it much more directly

Not true. The problem was that, with 375 AP, you could hit somebody with magic damage equal to 40% of their health in one shot. The reason for stacking health is to prevent being burst down, to endure. The act of having your own health items work against you was what Morello thought was toxic.
The DFG being tested looks really good. Especially since it indirectly buffs your teammate's magic damage.
AP Rengar -> DFG + Blackfire Torch (Fear It!!)


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