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-   -   [Featured Discussion] Support Role Suggestion (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2750554)

CupcakeTrap 11-01-2012 11:18 AM

[Featured Discussion] Support Role Suggestion
 
Morello has argued that Synergy would be problematic because it would make traditional Supports irrelevant: if the 5th Champion gets 40% normal farm instead of 0%, nobody will take 40% Sona when they could just take 40% Annie. To which I say: if traditional supports can't compete with even a half-starved Annie, then traditional supports should be buffed to accompany the introduction of Synergy (or whatever other mechanic is going to provide the 5th Champion some gold).

Some background:

I've argued for a "Synergy" mechanic. ( http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1898419 )

Synergy: When a nearby allied Champion slays a minion, gain a bonus equal to 40% of the minion's value. (For example: if Warwick kills a 20-gold minion, Warwick gets the full 20g but a nearby Veigar will also get 8g.)
If more than one allied Champion is in range of a last-hit, split this bonus evenly among them. (Example: WW kills a 20-gold minion, with Veigar and Ashe both nearby. Warwick gets 20g, Veigar gets 4g, Ashe gets 4g.)
(Acknowledgement: Cocaco and others suggested using a percentage.)

(In other words: make gold work sort of like XP gain does. The main difference: rather than splitting it, create a bonus for the non-last-hitter that doesn't take away from the last-hitter.)

This would allow for more flexibility in itemization, more flexibility in deciding who to send bot, and last but certainly not least, provide gold: gold is fun. Having gold is inherently fun as a gameplay thing. Not having gold feels bad.

This could be a basic mechanic that always applies, or it could be an item passive on an item with a low resale value, or it could be a Mastery (although that implementation is problematic.)

NOTE: I don't care if it's Synergy or something else, but if Supports are going to start having enough gold to play the itemization game, and make interesting choices with these new S3 Support items, they're going to need a meaningful fraction of normal farm gold. Maybe it doesn't have to be 40%. Maybe 20%. But something in the double digits.

Morello has commented on this idea. He made two critiques:


Morello argues: Synergy would be bad if implemented as a Mastery.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morello (Hozzászólás 30631879)
I like some things about this solution, but what we don't want to do is make the trees class-focused only (something we're working to change in S3). So an AP going 21 in Utility should have viability, or a tank going 21 in offense. This transcends lane assignment, which occasionally changes with meta. We do have a new utility mastery that should help support, and is part of a "thousand cuts" approach - a number of small changes that add up to a larger result.

Okay, fine; I initially proposed it as a Mastery, but for MONTHS the consensus has been that it would be better as a basic mechanic (that everyone gets automatically, like XP sharing) or an item passive or something. I don't feel this argument bears any contemporary relevance.

If you want to know why we've agreed for months in the Synergy thread that it would be better as a default mechanic than as a Mastery: it's too big to be a Mastery, and if placed deep in the tree it would lock Supports into Utility (or whatever). Masteries are for options. Synergy would be fundamental. So make it a fundamental mechanic, not a Mastery. I see some merit to the "item passive" suggestion, as well, but this would remove some nice side-benefits, like the way basic-mechanic-synergy would let a Support (at lower Elos) help their ADC by picking up last-hits the ADC misses (giving the ADC 40% of the minion's value rather than 0%.)

Morello argues: No team would want a 40% farm Sona if they could have an Annie with 40% farm instead. Synergy would make traditional Supports non-viable.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morello (Hozzászólás 30631879)
We do want to improve support itemization and support gold. We don't have any intention of giving them carry-gold, or high gold streams as this pushes traditional, low-scaling supports out of the game forever. If my options are to have a fed Sona or a fed Annie in my bottom lane, I would rarely choose Sona. This is the problem. Additionally, supports scaling can only be done with damage - and if they're good because of their utility with no gold, how crazy are they with it when they do DPS? (I'd like to do a support-scaling change to make their supportive abilities scale on AP later down the road - not for S3 preseason though).

Wait, what? I get that, with their current scaling level, you'd never want to send a traditional Support mid in a serious game. (100%-farm Annie beats 100%-farm Sona.) But you're saying that even at 40% gold traditional Supports are terrible? It's only at 0% that they're at all viable? And that THIS is the reason you can't implement Synergy? Well, then either adjust Synergy gold to a point where both Annie and Sona are viable (this point exists somewhere between 0% and 100%) or else just buff those traditional Supports so they can at least compete with a half-starved Annie.

As I see it, gold-scaling is about risk. Snowballing champs are high-risk. An Ashe who gets fed will dominate. An Ashe who is under-fed will be terrible. Zero-CS-capable champs, like the "traditional Supports", are low-risk: they can't snowball out of control like carries, but they're more reliable in that they're pretty good even if they have a sucky early game.

An Annie with 40% normal farm is not an Annie who has won her bet. She has been pushed out of lane, denied farm, and otherwise beaten back from snowball territory. (Or she's duo-laning and relying on Synergy, which isn't meant to provide carry-level gold.) If you're saying that such an Annie should always be able to contribute more than a Sona, I think you've just admitted that you've overnerfed traditional Supports. (Okay, fair enough: maybe it was the right call for the 0% farm meta-situation, but if you're bringing 5th Champ gold up above 0%, then maybe it's time to recalculate, because they should be able to remain viable picks.)

At 100% normal farm, yes, Annie should beat Sona. That Annie has won her bet and should reap the reward.

At 0% normal farm, yes, Sona should beat Annie. Annie has completely lost her bet. If Annie beat Sona at 0% farm, then Annie was never taking a risk to begin with.

I'm proposing 40% or so as the size of the "5th goldstream" because I think, at that level, both Annie and Sona will be at least viable choices. If they wouldn't be, then traditional Supports need buffs. Alternately, if at 40% Annie dominates, then lower Synergy's magnitude to X%, where "X%" is the level at which they are both viable. Annie wins hard at 100%. Sona wins hard at 0%. They must cross paths at some point between 100% and 0%. That is "X%".

There are two options for Support buffs:
(1) More gold-independent power: Give Sona a small dose of additional "safe" power, so that if botlane goes well, Annie is stronger, but if bot lane goes badly, Sona is stronger.
(2) More gold-dependent power: No reason why Sona's aura strengths and CC can't scale with AP. (A bonus of this approach: you could see genuine full Supports going mid or top and farming their way to Tons of Aura Power or Tons of Armor Shred instead of Tons of Damage.)

I think the game would be a lot more interesting if you could make this kind of decision as to who their 5th Champion will be. Sona is the stronger default pick, and will hold up better if the lane goes poorly. But perhaps your 5th player is really bad at Support characters and is a really good Annie. Maybe then you want an Annie. Perhaps your team is going for split-pushes and early dominance rather than big mid-game teamfights. Supports are geared toward big teamfights, so perhaps then you'd want Annie, or Xin, or someone else like that instead of a Sona.

Fenomenom 11-01-2012 11:22 AM

You can't quote something that he didnt say.

KBLOB 11-01-2012 11:23 AM

This is a pretty stupid idea. You want to give people free gold just for sitting around doing nothing, basically. So as support I'm just going to stack gp5 and get 40% of all the money my carry is making?

Even worse, the semi-functional double carry kill lane. They could roll up with gp5 items that are ok like Kage's Pick or Avarice Blade. Then they are also netting 40% of the gold from the other carry. All they have to do is take turns feeding each other gold. There are carries like Vayne that don't even need lots of itemization early game to do crazy damage.

Does this effect work with other gold generation? Can I just run GP in lane with Tiamat and Parley minions and give my associate a huge chunk of bonus gold?


Too many hassles for this to be a good mechanic imo.

Machop 11-01-2012 11:23 AM

I don't see why picking a fifth damage dealer with some minor CC is a problem. It makes you decide between more damage or utility (auras, heals, cc). It'd shake up this stagnated meta a little bit.

Don't we already see that with Lux and Zyra supports?

Noric 11-01-2012 11:23 AM

He said fed.. not 40% farm. He is however not accounting for the strength of aura items in teamfights.

UnicornFan91 11-01-2012 11:25 AM

i think he's saying a support annie with your gold splash mechanic is better than a support sona with your gold mechanic.
and i'm going to agree with him there.
so many ap champions are already being played as support because they dont need gold to be effective.

Bullettime7 11-01-2012 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machop (Hozzászólás 30931288)
I don't see why picking a fifth damage dealer with some minor CC is a problem. It makes you decide between more damage or utility (auras, heals, cc). It'd shake up this stagnated meta a little bit.

Don't we already see that with Lux and Zyra supports?

Zyra is more to do with the fact she offers more utility AND damage than many supports after Riot has gone through and nerfed the living hell out of many supports.

We're starting to see a lot more "unconventional" picks rising in popularity, such as support Fiddle and support Zyra because of the weaknesses of many standard supports.

Verxint 11-01-2012 11:33 AM

I don't like this mechanic because it's a hack.

CupcakeTrap 11-01-2012 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnicornFan91 (Hozzászólás 30931337)
i think he's saying a support annie with your gold splash mechanic is better than a support sona with your gold mechanic.
and i'm going to agree with him there.
so many ap champions are already being played as support because they dont need gold to be effective.

And I'd argue that this is a sign that traditional supports have been overnerfed.

It's fine if Annie dominates at 100% farm, Sona dominates at 0% farm, and they're roughly competitive at 40% farm.

If Annie dominates at 40% farm, then Annie's getting a ton of snowball potential for "free", because she's almost as safe as Sona at low farm-levels.

So, implement Synergy and buff traditional supports.

Dryad Soraka 11-01-2012 11:34 AM

I'd like to see what idiot team wants Annie over Sona.


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