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League of Legends Community (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/index.php)
-   Champ/Skin Concepts (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=40)
-   -   Dear Riot..... (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2619165)

Rageman202 09-27-2012 07:00 PM

Dear Riot.....
 
I know Probably I will start an uproar or get in serious trouble for this but I think it is time some of the communities voices be heard....

I, Rageman202, Ask to Petition in that there be a Terms of Service Agreement, that allows Riot to come on to this forum and use these Ideas. If you agree. Please comment if you agree. I know that riot comes for "insperation." But sometimes it would be nice for more then one community champ per 2 years or so......


Petition ;

Rageman202
WindsofDemise
FlamesofTerror
Pethrax
Lord Kyleshore
SananMasa
ProXc
KillaTroll
FRANKx7HExTANK
Gudenspad
Icraig33
Kfczombie
Styrgwyr
Fierce Summoner
Derpadeath
ask rumb1e
Askelon
Pat Of FAP Corp
Nikola999
GhostBladesz
LordBones
meowingbadger
Mrfishii
Slvr2th
eater of souls45
nathanchinn
freek4224
Void22
fromancer
MadHatterSyndra
Carpe Omnia
Weezooo
Aphet
BloodFungus
Osprii
Deimus144
Zergmare
Firewyvern30
ThePandara
Gradunk
TheCrookedCat
Daviez20
Davidt1234
Crapsdivine
Omnifinity
x Syotos x
Lord Faff
Raivir
Halagren
ValorAndGlory
Nazrethim
LLucidDream
Aerosu
Mondreus
Necrosslicer
Zarkof
VictisRage
Gargug
HeroicLegend
Cryoshell17
Tael Zenith
Killerpool
Nacoran
Nysta
Green Earth Guy
Dux Hominum
Doommech
James Ookami
The Skella
McMonigle
Kill Joyy
Seremis
Kayfish
Pumpkin Raven
Zebediah101
Legend of Riven
Ether Master
NetherDrifter
Kyoshiro Isheto
Inuzanryu
Venedicae
Eila Ilmatar
Sephrinx
Txts
marioman14
The Low 0ne
maad131
iOnceFistedGod
A Sneaky Chicken
SephirothWontDie
Aevus Clumpus
Feror
PN95
The Skella
Paceman11
AuV2 Zinc
Zurker
Pengwndude
Frozen Flame6
WoefulMe
DezOverlord
Struddle
RogueVector
Mibani
Action Bobby
The weird hero
WaffleNSyrup
Juso Magna


Well 66 Thumbs up and 93 Signatures later did this thread blossom. I want to thank those who support this forum but I also want to thank the people who work constantly in this forum. Such as the Council or single individual members whom give there time to make this place the Champion Crafters 101 Central. With this overwhelming Support I hope to see Riot not cave in but come to terms with its community!

EDIT 2:
Well now up to 80 thumbs up and 108 signatures on this yet, I don't think Riot has changed this up... Thank you all for the continued support and counter arguments to this! It shows some faults but something can be worked out!

With High Honor and Repect

Rageman 202

WindsofDemise 09-27-2012 09:30 PM

I agree with this. It wouldn't be hard for the designers to drop in a TOSA into the game download that specifies that any intellectual property posted on their website is, by agreeing, theirs. So, we could post ideas to our hearts content, and all that we posted would be theirs. We wouldn't have rights to it, and I don't think that many of us care about that. So, why don't they? What's so incredibly hard about adding in a paragraph or two? Honestly.

I'm tired of seeing such a great resource for this game fizzle and die, because people eventually don't care. They give up. They wait for the dust to settle, and maybe, maybe, riot deciding to be a bit more active, and nothing happens. To be blunt, if this was an oil reserve the US would be exploiting it 24/7 even if they had to do something shifty.

In my opinion the worst thing that people can do to one another is ignore them, and that exactly what is happening here. We are set here to fend for ourselves, and while I'm all for the eat-or-be-eaten idea to help spur ideas from us, but come on. There is this fun little company called Runic Games, and they have a wonderful concept called open-modifiable gaming.

They actually give you the tools to freely change the game to your hearts content, and they sometimes take the best player-made changes to incorperate as patches to their games. Why do they do this? Because it brings them profit, and good-will with the company. Also it limits how much they really have to spend on upgrading the game. When you have a source of endless, free, and willing labor at your finger tips why not? I'm not saying that's the only reason why they do that, but I'm sure it's crossed their minds.

They do it to ensure that their players fully enjoy what they are presenting as software, and allows them to learn about what their future games should need. Again it's both profitable and useful to them and their community.

============

In short, step it up Riot a lot of us are getting tired of excuses. We can't take the leap only you can.

Winds

Rageman202 09-27-2012 09:46 PM

Wow Winds, Was not expecting the a veteran replying. But I agree, They seem to ignore the Community and I believe they got them selves the "Big Company" syndrome. Where the company, is added only what they think and have not really looked into us here. They keep ignoring us here. One of the Newest Maps, Proving Ground is the biggest thing going for Riot because of the fact that is new. Older people dont come back to because it is boring, then maybe come back to see if there is anything new. It just the same food but diffrent look. If Riot would open more options, like new maps or new ways to fight other gamers. I just want something to be diffrent.

Lyria Eternal 09-27-2012 10:09 PM

I would like to second this petition. I agree with everything said above, and would like to wonder if the number of players coming in is going to offset the number of players that will leave.

Pethrax 09-27-2012 10:22 PM

I know I have stated as much in quite a few of my threads and concepts, but I will say so again:

Riot, you have full leave to take anything and everything from what I have posted. I won't say I should get credit for it, but if you do take something from me, it would be nice if I did get a bit of credit. But please, please take what we are giving. To not do so is an insult, basically a slap in our faces. By not taking what we are offering, by not even looking, you are saying that what we have to offer is not even worth the effort of looking at.

I sign this petition.

Katsuni 09-27-2012 10:57 PM

Gawd I'm half asleep since I just woke up to do a few quick chores before passing out again, but meh... I'm awake enough that I need to do something to get me tired enough to sleep again. Perhaps a rant will work.

In terms of whot WindsofDemise was saying, yes, Runic games does tend to use fan made content, and Valve in particular, is known even more so for this.

Keep in mind, however, that whot these two tend to deal in are quite different than whot Riot does. A MOBA is considerably different from FPS games in many ways, with the balance adjustments and content being considerably different in how they're designed.

Consider that for something like Team Fortress 2, all someone needs to do to get their stuff in the game, honestly, is slap together a low-poly 3D model of a gun (having been trained in this, I can guarantee yeu that it's not much work to do so; the texturing may take awhile, though to make it look good), and some generic, easy to adjust stats. Most people honestly just make hats, which don't even have stats, so there's no balance issues associated, even.

For a champion in LoL, however, yeu're looking at hundreds of times more work to make one, from modeling and actually rigging and animating a champion design, particle effects and so on just for visual appearances, which takes far, far more effort for a soft-skinned cell-shaded (cell shaded animation reaaaally sucks to do in maya, which is the 3D program Riot uses) animatable character than a hard-surface immobile weapon.

Beyond that though, yeu also have the issue of needing to design a champion from the ground up to be desired to be bought on impulse buys, to have a strong silhouette and personality, to use their addition as a way to further expand upon the world's lore, and so on and so forth. This doesn't even include other things to do, such as programming in new abilities, play testing, or the multitude of stuff which runs behind the scenes to make it work at all in the first place.

Creating a champion is remarkably complex and in depth of a process, and a random list of abilities is just short of being actually quite useless in terms of character design, no matter how effective, fun or balanced those abilities may be.

While it's possible that the champions provided on this forum can be used as inspiration, and have been used as such in the past, a direct rip from here is simply not going to work. They're quite unlikely to rip a concept from the forum with a minimum of changes and drop it into the ground whole because, to be quite honest, the time and effort that would go into building the champion from the details provided on here, and then forcing them to fit into the game, would actually be slower and more painstaking than it would be to simply make a new one from scratch.

Toss in the legal issues for a company that's far less well established (they lost their last lawsuit in regards to this issue, so can't really afford to take the risk as they don't have a world class legal team working for them unfortunately, nor would be able to justify the expense to get one), and it's honestly not worth bothering to do so.

Slapping a list of abilities together and a backstory, even with some loose concept art, though pretty awesome and fun to do, is simply not even remotely enough to reduce the development cycle at all, and mostly just throws in additional complexities that have to be worked around.

Overall, the net time and resources spent increases for pulling something off of here, rather than decreases. They're not getting anything for doing it other than a bunch of headaches and potentially disastrous legal problems.

I love making champions, as character design's just something I love to do in general, but to be perfectly blunt, from actually knowing whot's required to build something to the point that it can be added to a game like LoL, I can pretty much guarantee yeu that they don't have much reason to do so.

If it were something like an item? Yeah, sure. A set of stats, a 2D icon, an balancing issues are easy to do. There's no profit to be gained or lost directly, as no one can even purchase items for actual money, nor is there a need to make them really make much sense in the game's plotline, nor to develop a likeable appearance or personality.

In short, items are remarkably easy to make, as are generic NPC's that just sit there and do nothing, other than maybe have a vague personality and a few bad jokes.

Making something as complex as a fully fleshed out champion simply isn't even remotely on the same scale.

A single person who's trained in whot to do can throw together an item for TF2 in a day, tops, if yeu are willing to invest most of that time working on texture maps for it.

To make a champion for LoL, yeu're looking at closer to 4 to 12 months, depending on the amount of resources diverted towards such, with 9 months being the "average" development cycle, and that's including a team of about 20-30 different people working on various aspects of it.

So... yeah. I mean, it'd be nice if they looked at the forum a bit more for inspiration than they do, and if they didn't have to worry about legal problems, but honestly, just slapping a "anything posted here is ours" doesn't really work, and making it retroactively apply would cause no end of nightmares with grandfathered designs.

I dunno, I just don't see any real reason for them to do so. They get a little bit of good PR out of such, though admittedly not much, and in return get a heap of additional problems to deal with which they wouldn't have had to put up with if they'd just used their own ideas, which they clearly don't lack for.

Valve can get away with it easy. Have someone throw together a 3D model of a hat in an afternoon which can be programmed into the game in a few days, tops. It generates tens of thousands of dollars if they make a big enough fuss about it, and they give the creator a portion of the profits for massive PR benefits at virtually no cost to self.

For something like champions in LoL... it just doesn't work that way.

Sorry, but I don't think it's likely I'll be signing the petition, as I don't really see much reason to do so. From RIOT's perspective, as a developer, there's simply not enough incentive to do so, even if yeu removed the legal issues.

Anyway, the rant helped at least, so thanks for giving me something to put me to sleep. Night night!

Lord Kyleshorse 09-27-2012 11:01 PM

This was originally meant to be a sub-forum for Riot to contain everyone who suggested ideas for new champions and skins. Riot constantly says that they can't take these amazing ideas simply because of copyright issues, even though many people including myself even place on our threads stating we would hand any disclaimer rights to Riot in return of simply using our ideas. We don't want free RP, we don't want to get the newest champion for free, we just want to see our ideas made real. Even so, Riot still chooses to ignore our calls. But little do they know that the power of the community can truly outweigh that of the company.

Sign me up on this petition. Let our voices be truly heard!

Styrgwyr 09-27-2012 11:20 PM

I undoubtfully sign this petition, I feel that the community should be credited.

And we can all feel more involved within Riot, it's a more positive outlook and feel to the community too, isn't that what Riot was trying to do?

NidaleeSanan 09-27-2012 11:23 PM

agreed.

proXc 09-28-2012 04:31 AM

Petition signed. Although I have one little addition to make:
Riot, if you even consider this, can YOU give us a template and a quick "this is what we want if we want anything from you" guide to making a champion fit to your standards.


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