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-   -   No way to counter build health if you are AP (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2580709)

Rindin14 09-15-2012 09:27 PM

No way to counter build health if you are AP
One thing that I have noticed while playing an AP champ is that if the entire enemy team builds just a bit of health you end up pretty much being worthless since it takes you forever to kill anyone.

If they build Magic resist you can counter build with a void staff, but the only item that helps you at all is Death Fire Grasp which at best only takes away 45% of target's HP leaving you to try to wear down the rest.

I would like to see an item that mimics Madred's Bloodrazor, but adds damage to spells for a percentage of targets max HP.

Would love to hear suggestions on specific stats/gold costs, and feedback (both positive and negative) is appreciated

Sereg Anfaug 09-15-2012 09:42 PM

Edit: Missed a part of your post, sorry.

Your best bet to correct this is by changing targets. Burst down the squishiest members of the other team, usually the adc, and let your sustained DPS champions worry about the high health opponents. If your opposing teamcomp is likely to build lots of health, you might also consider playing an AP carry who's less reliant on burst damage, like Karthus.

aye le heune 09-15-2012 10:07 PM

buy dfg, win game

JustMyBassCannon 09-15-2012 10:30 PM

"No counter to HP for AP"

*tries to hide Deathfire Grasp*

Yup, you're totally right. Nooo counter to HP for AP champions.

67chrome 09-15-2012 11:15 PM

Highly unkillable champions are a problem for AD champions as well, it just comes down to when you start bursting them down.

If you're going one vs. one against tanks you can always build for a longer but more sustained burst. Building items like Deathfire Grasp and Lich Bane will essentially give you 2 more bursts in your rotation, and Rylies will allow you to kite. Frozen Heart is pretty nice to, if you're going up against a super-sponge target you'll need to survive long enough to get multiple rotations off.

Like ADCs, you'll generally need a substantial reserve of cash to pull this off well though, in modes like Dominion or Twisted Treeline tanky DPS will generally run you into the ground with their early advantages of being both tanky and DPSy before you can get much gold.

Of course, it depends on who you play. With Malzahar you just stack AP and throw a Void Staff in the mix.

When all else fails, a decent number of Mages can work as an ADC as well, all that really matters in that regard is having a ranged attack. And a decent chunk of mages actually have something that scales with AD. If not, you can end up being like an Ashe with lackluster ADC damage but loads of utility.

He rises 09-15-2012 11:17 PM

You are right poster, there really is no counter. DFG is nice but it is a one time on use, madreds can be used constantly. AP side needs some help in the shop.

ImIndustructible 09-15-2012 11:40 PM

Bruisers/Tanks build Health + MR to counter Magic Damage Burst.

AP Casters counter that with AP + DFG + Void Staff.

Let's end the circle of countering here please.

Frightning 09-16-2012 04:36 AM

Lets see here:
For just pure health, Deathfire Grasp
If they get high MR: Void Staff
Also, for those mages that it's good for Lich Bane is quite nice, and it's physical damage now too, so that can really help against high health and MR
Cooldown reduction is great for improving your damage output over time as a mage.
Also getting higher defenses on a mage can be a sort of counter to tanky enemies, as they let you live long and thus get more spells off
Examples include: Health from Rod of Ages and Rylai's Crystal Scepter, Armor from Zhonya's Hourglass, MR from Abyssal Scepter.

Rindin14 09-16-2012 07:06 AM

so when Dr. Mundo is chasing me with his speed boost, extreme health, and damage output from who knows where what should I do?

axesandspears 09-16-2012 08:29 AM

Deathfire Grasp was reworked from an on-ability-hit to an active because the effectiveness was inconsistent.

Mage abilities vary greatly compared to auto-attacks, so it is only possible to have a 1-size-fits-all solution in the form of an activated ability.

The fact that mages have trouble bursting down high health targets is not an issue. Mages are supposed to kill off the squishier targets early in the fight, before they can inflict much damage. Mages are not supposed to wreck everything and everyone.

There should be a counter to mages, and building health+magic resistance is that counter whether you like it or not. However, even if a mage has trouble bursting down opponents because they built up a lot of health and armor, the mage still did its job because the opponents were forced to sacrifice damage for that defense. The carry in particular would either remain a target, or much of its dps.

Anyway, it looks to me that damage and penetration are almost too available in this game compared to defense. Personally I'd like at least the penetration aspect to be lowered a bit--only a small amount, games still need to end.

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