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-   -   Running Garen Numbers on PBE (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2462925)

Anlysia 08-10-2012 11:00 PM

Running Garen Numbers on PBE
 
Ignore this entire post, I used incorrect numbers to value Judgment. Any discussion of Judgment damage in this thread is invalid.

Correct numbers are available here:
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9...pindamage2.png

I apologize to Xypherous for taking him to task on incorrect numbers. My bad, I feel like an idiot.

Also: Judgment does 75% damage to minions and monsters now, up from 50%. That's a big deal when it comes to farming lane.

Quote:

So, I tested Garen on PBE. He felt pretty strong with the new E changes.

As Riot said, the idea was to help him scale into late game...

This made me curious, how much better was he going to scale than he did before?

So, I ran the numbers.

http://yfrog.com/z/obw2jep

The results? His damage is LOWER with E, and gets lower the more bonus Attack Damage you get.

Yeah. Take that back and play with it some more, Riot.

Xypherous 08-10-2012 11:03 PM

Quote:

The results? His damage is LOWER with E, and gets lower the more bonus Attack Damage you get.
Yes - this is absolutely true. Just with the 1.1 total AD vs. 1.4 bonus AD would've been sufficient to tell you that as soon as you got enough bonus AD - this ability would eventually deal less damage. Getting the AD earlier will also exacerbate this effect.

The problem we identified wasn't that Garen couldn't build damage and get damage out in the late game sense - but that he had to walk an incredibly fine line between building offense and defense in order to do so. On live, a Garen with IE/Atma's/Youmu's/etc. would deal an amazing amount of AoE damage and utterly blow up as soon as something touched them.

In short - it's not that he couldn't built glass cannon and deal a million damage - it's how practical building damage items was in the first place given how you exploded. Hence the 'W' changes to enable to him to need fewer resistances to actually go out and do his thing.

Zhonyas 08-10-2012 11:04 PM

Can we just sink the fact in that garen is just not a late game champ at all?

hashinshin 08-10-2012 11:04 PM

How I read this.

By level 7 most champions like Irelia were standing in Judgment and not even moving since they could out damage it. To fix this we lowered Garen's early level damage so they could start doing this sooner, probably by level 4. We feel that allowing people to out damage judgment makes Garen entirely pointless. Also we buffed his late game. Except we didn't.

In this thread Riot realizes that Riven, Jax, Irelia, Darius, and Shen are real champions are not just figments of their imagination. Or doesn't, I dunno. I don't play Garen now so it doesn't really effect me.

(Honestly I could make a big post detailing just how silly the Garen changes are, but it's painfully obvious that Riot is in outright denial over how powercreeped top lane (and the whole game really) is and some champions are simply going to get the short end of the stick. It happened to Jarvan, it'll happen to Garen.)

Bonkymnobols 08-10-2012 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xypherous (Hozzászólás 28108006)
Yes - this is absolutely true. A cursory glance at 1.1 total AD vs. 1.4 bonus AD would've been sufficient to tell you that.

The problem we identified wasn't that Garen couldn't build damage and get damage out in the late game sense - but that he had to walk an incredibly fine line between building offense and defense in order to do so. On live, a Garen with IE/Atma's/Youmu's/etc. would deal an amazing amount of AoE damage and utterly blow up as soon as something touched them.

In short - it's not that he couldn't built glass cannon and deal a million damage - it's how practical building damage items was in the first place given how you exploded. Hence the 'W' changes to enable to him to need fewer resistances to actually go out and do his thing.

Except the part where the W changes actually encourage you to build more resistance, not the other way around.

Anlysia 08-10-2012 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xypherous (Hozzászólás 28108006)
Yes - this is absolutely true. A cursory glance at 1.1 total AD vs. 1.4 bonus AD would've been sufficient to tell you that.

The problem we identified wasn't that Garen couldn't build damage and get damage out in the late game sense - but that he had to walk an incredibly fine line between building offense and defense in order to do so.

I'm going to quote the video and Phreak/Morello talking here for you, Xypherous.

"Garen is an unviable competitive pick. While his laning is strong, his impact fell off in the late game. In this patch, we're given Garen a lot of ability tweaks to address his late-game viability."

"Since Champions get attack damage every time they level up, this helps this ability scale into the late game. The lower AD ratio early on, means he doesn't suddenly get massive when he builds an item like Brutalizer."

So...he doesn't get massive early on when he builds an item like Brutalizer, and he has less damage in the end, too? I'm confused what the goal of this was.

Lowering his damage because "his impact [falls] off in late game" seems pretty much not helping this at all.

Xypherous 08-10-2012 11:12 PM

Quote:

Except the part where the W changes actually encourage you to build more resistance, not the other way around.
If you want to go down that route, you can and become a strict utility tank build with Frozen Mallet and the like.

However, in general - the more defense you give a champion innately or the fewer items they need to become defensive, you'll generally find people buying offense to round it off once they feel like they have "enough" defense.

The active duration scaling also helps secure a window for you if you haven't built enough resistances to simply passively tank all incoming damage.

Quote:

So...he doesn't get massive early on when he builds an item like Brutalizer, and he has less damage in the end, too? I'm confused what the goal of this was.

Lowering his damage because "his impact [falls] off in late game" seems pretty much not helping this at all.
In short, you need to buy less defensive items total to reach end-game solid rock status - thus freeing up more options for damaging itemization or utility.

Anlysia 08-10-2012 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonkymnobols (Hozzászólás 28108136)
Except the part where the W changes actually encourage you to build more resistance, not the other way around.

Yes, if you have <125 Armor/MR, 20% is less-valuable than 25 flat Resistance.

IS16ac70fce0d8ebbea8e0b 08-10-2012 11:14 PM

Just remove his passive. It's useless in the jungle. Give him armor pen or sth.

Noraver 08-10-2012 11:14 PM

Honestly, I think he should've just gained an extra second of spin time, for each 100 Armor/MR he had.
Tank Garen would've had more damage output without the AD scaling, while AD Garen would've actually thought to build a bit of tank (to break 100's) to get that bonus spin time for the AD he had.
Also, I think his Q should freeze their cooldowns instead of silence. *That would've been a pretty cool buff..
I could've given you a hundred and one ways to make him more viable, like making his Courage an AOE effect (To a lesser %), because he DOES 'lead the charge' in his lore, inspiring his allies..
Or even an Armor shred (-10[?] armor for every slice from Judgement). THAT would've fixed him, AND given him peeling power so he could play as a proper tank.

Garen's in my top played three champions in Ranked, and I absolutely love how he plays now. I'm pretty disappointed with the way he's turned out..
He's one of my oldest and best champions, and now by the looks of things, I honestly don't even want to touch him ever again.
If anybody saw his champion spotlight, Phreak built him AD. AD Garen is pretty much dead now, and Garen himself is even more-so.

And so, Garen weeps in the corner while Sejuani and Karma pat him on the back, and introduce him to his new home.


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