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-   -   [Tanking] How much MR/AR is too much (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=21731)

Ballcoozy 10-29-2009 10:18 AM

[Tanking] How much MR/AR is too much
 
When is it more beneficial to just buy health (or maybe grab some dodge)?
And when should I stop buying health and pick up some AR/MR?

AR/MR reduction is calculated (i believe) by your AR/MR value (V):

% reduction = V / (100+V) * 100

so at 100 AR or MR you will take 50% less damage 100/(100+100) * 100 = 50%

To get to from 50% reduction to 75% you would need 200 more armor

300/(100+300) * 100 = 75%

With only an AR/MR of 100, you are basically getting twice the bang for your buck in terms of health. It takes twice as much damage to kill you with 50% damage reduction. Health is pretty expensive per point value, but with an already decent AR&MR, it seems like the better choice in stacking as opposed to more armor.

Alternatively, if you have low AR/MR, it seems much more valuable to pick up some than get more health.

Defense seem all about balance, where offense is all about pumping one or two stats.

Flame away

Shizz 10-29-2009 10:30 AM

Imo, it is about balance, but more about who you're up against.

Do they have more casters or people going AP builds? Get more MR.
Do they have a lot of physical DPS? Get more armor

More HP is always good, but not if you don't have enough armor or MR.

SmecssRaege 10-29-2009 01:06 PM

as shizz said, it is about who you are up against

but my GENERAL area i shoot for is:

200-250 armor
100-150 MR

usually via:
Chalice
Guardian Angel

or (this would be on a char i went for philo's stone instead of chalice)
Force of Nature or Banshee's Veil (some tanks need the move speed/HP regen, some don't)
Guardian Angel


Armor:
Via:
Thornmail or Warden's Mail
Ninja Tabi
Sunfire Cloak
Frozen Heart
Guardian Angel

PinkTyGRR 10-29-2009 01:08 PM

depends man
 
Like what shizz said before me. your logic works well but it isnt really adaptive, it seems very linear and works well 1v1. If your opponenets team happens to have a 4:1 ratio of most of its damage coming from physical dps, by all means, stack armor, or if its from magic, mr. in non-premades this actually happens quite a bit. say they have 4 physical dps and a nuke. unless their nuke gets overfed and rediculous id probably go ahead and stack sunfire capes as my primary items. the tanks i play, mundo, ammumu, and rammus, they all are walking aoe dps, and more capes just add to it. additionally you are taking reduced amounts of damage from EACH source. adding hp isnt as efficient as cutting the dps of 4 sources. you should also throw in a frozen heart because it will not only give you armor, a whopping 110 i believe, it will reduce attack speeds by 25%, which means with that item alone you take 50% less damage from each physical dps source, you and your teammates take 25% less attacks from each source, throw a sunfire cape or 2 and you can run into their whole team and kill a couple, live, and the rest flee.

if its 4 main sources of damage are magic, same rules apply. get magic resistance, i'd go abyssal scepter, magic resist, ap, AND cuts magic resist of their team, helping out your team and yourself, because like i said, i use ammumu, rammus, and mundo, they all use magic to do their walking aoe dps. next get other magic resist items, they end up not being able to do anything. like i said, even if it is dimminishing, the fact that the resistance cuts 4 different sources, it protects better than stacking hp.

if you're lucky enough to run into situation 1 or 2 and your team doesnt feed them, late game you just become invincible and as a walking aoe dps can get multiple kills, even aces if they become reckless and frustrated enough.

what if its a split between 2:3 or 3:2? chances are that as the game progresses there will be one or more characters that are just not a threat because they do not scale well or the player just sucks, so it comes back to 1:3 ratio or 2:2 ratio, if its a 3:1 ratio again its probably safe to go with the above method. it its 2 physical dps and 2 nukes, or still a 2:3 ratio, hp is a great choice because its a way to tank any source of damage, and with ramus, ammumu, or mundo, all have efficient ways of killing whole creep waves with ease to get the most out of warmonger's living armor, which besides frozen mallet are the only hp items i ever get. also one of the BEST things to do in this case is to convince someone else on your team who you stick with (hopefully another main or minor tank) to get an aegis with you. I dont remember the exact stats, but it costs less than 2000 gold and has a unique aura. the aura even though unique, gives the effect to you and surrounding players, and 2 unique auras do stack as long as they are from 2 different sources and you own one of them. the end result i believe is that you get 40 mr and 35 armor (i dont remember what else it does) and anyone around you gets 40 mr and 35 armor, if someone else got it as well, you BOTH get those boosts, netting you 80mr and 70 armor, as well as alll other teammates getting 40mr and 35 armor. best bang for your buck in terms of defence.

Logo 10-29-2009 01:14 PM

Keep in mind that armor and magic resist boost the effectiveness of heals and regen too.

Corran 10-29-2009 02:25 PM

The way the devs have described it, each point of AR/MR is an effective percent of health. 1 AR is effectively 1% more health. Therefore 100 AR is 100% "more health." So the scaling is more linear.

Plus, this doesn't apply to Rammus.

Ballcoozy 10-29-2009 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corran (Hozzászólás 239403)
The way the devs have described it, each point of AR/MR is an effective percent of health. 1 AR is effectively 1% more health. Therefore 100 AR is 100% "more health." So the scaling is more linear.

Plus, this doesn't apply to Rammus.

but the way it scales another 100 AR is not another 100% more health unless my math is really terrible.

Auralynx 10-29-2009 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmecssRaege (Hozzászólás 239166)
as shizz said, it is about who you are up against

but my GENERAL area i shoot for is:

200-250 armor
100-150 MR

usually via:
Chalice
Guardian Angel

or (this would be on a char i went for philo's stone instead of chalice)
Force of Nature or Banshee's Veil (some tanks need the move speed/HP regen, some don't)
Guardian Angel


Armor:
Via:
Thornmail or Warden's Mail
Ninja Tabi
Sunfire Cloak
Frozen Heart
Guardian Angel

The general ranges above are solid; I tend to think that if you exceed 200 armor or 100 MR by much you aren't really getting full value versus, say, more health, but a little more doesn't hurt. I've been known to go Force of Nature / Chalice pretty regularly, but in that case I am usually more interested in the regen on the former than the MR. Comments above regarding shopping relative to the enemy team are on point, as well. Mercury Treads in particular can be a great way to get one over on magic / slow teams.

Fruitstrike 10-29-2009 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballcoozy (Hozzászólás 239579)
but the way it scales another 100 AR is not another 100% more health unless my math is really terrible.

Yes, it is. Every point of armor is 1% health. So if you have 200 armor, you get +200% health (i.e. 100 + 100%), so for every 100 armor you do indeed get an additional +100% to base max health.

Damage Taken = Damage * 100 / (100 + Resist)

The above formula works for both armor & magic resist.

600 damage to someone with 0 armor = 600 damage (full damage)
600 damage to someone with 100 armor = 300 damage (1/2 damage)
600 damage to someone with 200 armor = 200 damage (1/3 damage)
600 damage to someone with 300 armor = 150 damage (1/4 damage)

This is a LINEAR scale, not diminishing returns. The thing people get confused about is that they see percents of damage taken instead of hits required. Using the above example, if I had 600 hp, it would take this many hits to kill me:

600 damage @ 0 armor = 1 hit to kill
600 damage @ 100 armor = 2 hits to kill
600 damage @ 200 armor = 3 hits to kill
600 damage @ 300 armor = 4 hits to kill

Notice the linear progression? With every 100 armor, I have to be hit an additional time to do the same amount of damage than if I did not have that 100 armor. Let's get a little more complicated. Let's say Master Yi is hitting you for 200 damage per hit, and you have 3000 hp:

200 damage @ 0 armor = 15 hits to kill (200 damage per hit)
200 damage @ 100 armor = 30 hits to kill (100 damage per hit)
200 damage @ 200 armor = 45 hits to kill (66.66 damage per hit)
200 damage @ 300 armor = 60 hits to kill (50 damage per hit)

It's linear. The first 100 armor you get is worth the exact same as the next 100 or the 100 after that. Every single point of armor is always worth the same. :)



Of important note also is that when you have a lot of armor, raising your max HP gives you even more bang for your buck, because each point of HP is actually worth (1 + (armor / 100)) HP.

If I had 1000 hp, and 100 armor, it would take 20 hits @ 100 damage to kill me. If I add 100 armor, it takes 30 hits to kill me (1000 HP / 33.33 damage = 30 hits). If I add 1000 HP instead, it now takes 40 hits to kill me (2000 HP / 50 damage = 40 hits).

You have to have a balance between armor, MR, and max HP. And then when you factor health regen into the equation as well that complicates things further. But I won't get into that. :)

toomad 10-29-2009 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballcoozy (Hozzászólás 239579)
but the way it scales another 100 AR is not another 100% more health unless my math is really terrible.

What fruitstrike said. You can play around with different values and how effective it is in my spreadsheet in the advanced tankstats section.


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