League of Legends Community

League of Legends Community (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/index.php)
-   In-Game HUD Discussion (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Locked Camera Discussion (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2019392)

boourns 04-13-2012 08:24 PM

Locked Camera Discussion
 
Thanks to PanzerFaust for compiling all this! (Sorry I had to start a new thread, but it needed a better title)

Since there are a lot of threads about camera views/playing with the locked camera and people were not finding the original thread I posted in I'm going to try to keep discussion focused in one new thread. My replies from another thread have been all put together here, please continue discussion here so people can get an idea of what's been talked about before and we don't rehash things continuously.

Thanks for taking the time to post, we do read almost everything in this forum even if we don't have time to respond. Please try to keep discussion constructive, I promise you we're not ignoring feature requests for locked camera players because we have a secret hatred for you.


1
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 17772421)
personally, i agree, i think we do a disservice to new players by letting them use camera locked as a default. It hinders them greatly for many champion (i.e. Anyone with a skillshot and heavily so for long ranged ones).

2
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 17828272)
Quote:

Originally Posted by kyzene (Hozzászólás 17773574)
gotta say, that as someone who hasn't played any kind of rts before lol, that locked camera is a godsend for me. I cannot play with the camera unlocked, and trying to do so makes skill shots, last hitting, and just about everything else impossible. I don't feel that locked camera has effected my games in any kind of negative way, and generally do pretty well on most champs. I don't think i would have stuck with the game if i had to play unlocked, and it was actually one of the first questions i asked a friend who asked me to play. If i ever need to see further than the screen lets me, i just click+drag on the map, and that has worked just fine for me so far.

interesting, that is not what i would have expected. Mechanically if you're moving last hitting and skill shots should be more difficult to target because your view is moving and making them a moving target. My perception is that people don't use free camera because it is an extra thing to manage. I would prefer to help people overcome that.

3
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 17933983)
let me be very clear and state that we are not looking at removing locked camera as an option.

What i said was that we should not use it as a *default*. As i said in my follow up post: I would prefer to make non-camera locked play easier to learn for all players.

There are many gameplay reasons why you don't want to lock the camera to your player. This is less of an issue on some champions, but even still you ideally want to be able to focus on the action in a team fight no matter what your positioning.

As ui designers we want to help players become masters of the game. I believe that being able to comfortably use a free camera is part of that. I'm open to hearing arguments why that is not the case *if* free camera was very easy to use.

4
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 17937376)
also, let me say we would definitely want to improve the experience for camera locked players, but it is also something that is used by a much smaller proportion of the players.

We are always trying to make the experience better for *all* our players and we try to prioritize things that are high value and impact a lot of people. Color blind mode is an example of something i really want to do because it could improve the experience of almost 10% of our players by *so much*. We would do that before we improved locked camera mode. In the same vein, improving the camera management in free camera mode would make many, many of our players more able to excel at the game. Of course, we balance all of this with how difficult it is to do.

Finally, many of the suggestions i see make the interaction with the camera more complicated and harder to discover, this is somewhat the opposite of what i would like to do as a general direction. But please keep the suggestions and constructive criticism coming!

5
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18169907)
here's the thing, people who use free camera are the vast majority of our players, not the elite. I've been having some people collect more detailed stats on locked camera usage and we'll evaluate again from there.

We're unlikely to do really disruptive things like allow map mirroring and things like that. This would be technically risky and time consuming and potentially negatively impact player communication and gameplay because two people on the same team are seeing completely different things.

I don't think changes to camera angle or fov are likely to pass muster either, we limit zoom out and control the view angle so players with the money to buy larger monitors/faster video cards/higher resolution don't have an advantage.

We might consider some kind of camera position biasing, but it has the potential to be really janky. Mostly likely would be a small adjustment to account for the hud space at the bottom.

Unfortunately with a fixed camera you're always going to have to sacrifice vision range in one part of the screen for another and you're regularly going to run into cases where the wrong part got sacrificed. I agree that on purple side this happens more often at the bottom of the screen, but if we corrected this we could seriously screw you if you loop around a teamfight from the bottom/blue side.

I wish i saw an easy answer to this, but it seems like what people really want is some kind of view that follows their champion and also keeps the part of the action they're interested on screen as well. That's pretty hard to get right since we can't read your intentions. :(

6
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18172260)
Quote:

Originally Posted by saabi (in response to 5) (Hozzászólás 18170827)
take the art out of the hud, and make the lifebar/manabar, the inventory, and minimap semi transparent, then remove the player portrait completely, and add a mini version at the top of the rest of ur teams portraits. Problem solved all around.

no... The vision differences are way more than they, they are related to the angle of the camera as well. The other way to work around this is to minimize your hud scale, but that doesn't fully solve the problem people are talking about.

7
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18172760)
Quote:

Originally Posted by snowstriker (in response to 5) (Hozzászólás 18171215)
maybe an option that enables the camera to track the mouse cursor? Kind of like alien swam where the camera will kind of extend the direction of the mouse cursor. That way the player can influence the camera a bit but isn't as demanding as moving the cursor to the edge and stuff; maybe it's a happy medium between locked and unlocked? Of course this should only be an option, not mandatory. Just my 2cents.

interesting idea, but alien swarm is a dual stick shooter adapted to mouse controls, i don't think they do much direct targeting of things. I think this could work well if we controlled champion movement with cursor keys primarily and had line targeting for attacks, but moving the view based on your mouse distance from your champion would make exact targeting very difficult i think. Think last hitting minions if your camera view and what was under your cursor was shifting with your mouse moves.

I could see us doing something like this if we ever ported the game to a console (not likely with the publisher agreements you see there though!).

8
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18172961)
re: Color blindess, i would say the effect is much more negative for almost all color blind players so the impact of the severity and the number of people it affects makes it an issue that i want to fix very much. It is also something that we provide no alternative solution for, it's not like they can just practice really hard and see red/green again! Not being able to see who's friendly and who's the enemy is really not fun. :(

9
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18173299)
Quote:

Originally Posted by arknova (Hozzászólás 18173083)
i see the point you bring up, but find that many players would be too put off without the camera-lock. When i started this game i stuck to camera lock only, and thought i'd never change. Then, as you mentioned, i realized you really needed to unlock for many champions.

I began to adjust, unlocking the camera for periods of time until i felt pressured to lock it again. Eventually i would stay unlocked for longer periods of time, and finally i play the game unlocked always now.

I think maybe a small tutorial focused on camera control would be nice, and every 10 levels it could pop up and recommend you do the tutorial again. The tutorial would recommend unlocking the camera.

yes, i would prefer to ease new players into using unlocked camera in the tutorial. If you feel strongly that locked camera is your preference it will be there as an option, however i do feel it is important to steer new players to unlocked camera for the gameplay reasons zielmann outlines so articulately. You really do lose a lot of map awareness with a locked camera and as a ui/ux designer i want to help our players become really awesome at our game by helping them do things that make for better gameplay.

10
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18209044)
Quote:

Originally Posted by scram racecar (in response to 8) (Hozzászólás 18174764)
so does this mean that a colorblind mode is currently in the works? I hope so..

yes, it's been talked about on the forum by another red so i can confirm that much. :d no release date yet, but we're working hard on it.

11
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18209180)
Quote:

Originally Posted by syl sgm (in response to the latter part of 5) (Hozzászólás 18175133)
it's already the case. People with 16:9 monitor can see more stuff than people with 4:3.

correct, and that is unavoidable (similar with eyefinity). However my understanding is that the game designers want to minimize the advantage in other cases. Also 16:9/16:10 is a pretty common aspect ratio now.

12
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18244668)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cmdrdeadman (in response to 5) (Hozzászólás 18217031)
i was reading this thread, and came across your message, and i realized i do have a solution to this that i have implemented before and it worked surprisingly well. It is very simple for an assisted mode, and while i would probably not use it since i like a free camera; it might actually be very good.

The idea is to use a center of mass approach. My implementation involved keeping things in frame around objects in 3d space, so the camera was controllable, but the focus of the camera followed the action. Basically, attach the camera to the target champion. Now locate all the other champions which are also on the screen (or a certain distance from target champion if it is easier), and find the "center of mass" of those champions (just average out their positions), and this is the new location you want the camera to look at. As champions come in and out of frame, the result will jump, so you really want to use a spring of some sort so the target point can be jumpy, but the camera will be smooth.

interesting idea! Simple enough concept, but there are a lot of details to get right. This is much more complicated than other solutions even in basic execution though. All the edge cases of handling camera movement as things go in and out of range, especially in fluid team fights, would be very tough to get right. How do you strike the right balance between moving to keep the action in frame, without being too abrupt? I don't think it is as simple as a spring/damping on camera movement. I think we would get better bang for our buck looking at improved free camera controls.

13
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18245077)
Quote:

Originally Posted by aniello (in response to 11) (Hozzászólás 18230101)
there is a thing called fog of war for a reason.

Not letting u zooming more for your reason i find it... Meh...

Then explain me why such difference here with camera zooming:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1086337

feel free to post in general or one of the design forums, the reasons behind this are outside my area of expertise, unfortunately.

14
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18249116)
champion or item feedback would have a better change of an answer. Or do an @morello in general.

15
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18255967)
Quote:

Originally Posted by get mad now (Hozzászólás 18251052)
blc had a nice system of a "smart" lock; it followed your cursor and your champion, dragging your camera out away from your champion the farther your cursor was from it. This kept your champion close to the camera center, but also allowed you to look at the things you needed to that were off-camera.

this would be interesting to experiment with, could be really disorienting if done wrong and what would happen if you try to move outside the range of view? I guess maybe it just stops you... Like this better than the center of mass idea because it's more player controlled

16
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18382636)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dsamus (Hozzászólás 18272603)
please don't remove the camera toggle completely, i have it bound to mouse3 to easily lock to myself for brief moments where camera panning would distract me. By all means introduce something else to help newer players avoid being dependent on it, but do not remove the lock toggle functionality altogether.

btw, there's a handy red post browsing function for forum threads (look at the top right of this post)! I addressed this early in the thread, let me be clear again: We would not remove locked camera toggle as an option.

17
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18384194)
@arcie, you might want to dial down the hyperbole a little bit. As a general rule, when threads aren't constructive or informative anymore i stop replying. I've stated more than once that i'd like to improve the locked camera experience, but there are higher value ui improvements that we're doing instead right now. We already have people gathering stats so we can see if we should raise the priority. I can't give you any more of a commitment than that, i don't just decide to do features in the game and have them happen!

While i understand your frustration that we are not doing seemingly simple fixes for a problem that affects you greatly, we have an incredible number of things that we want to do to improve our player's experience. We are constantly evaluating how big an improvement any given feature is to our players overall vs. The amount of effort we put in and try to maximize the amount of improvement we release. Unfortunately our priorities and yours as an individual player will not always line up.

18
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 18384822)
Quote:

Originally Posted by icelanis (in response to 2) (Hozzászólás 18366167)
its not that its more things to manage (though admittedly it is) its that you can potentially miss an opportunity to even attempt a skill-shot, simply because you were repositioning the camera. Since the skill-shot will go where you cursor indicates, you physically can't move/skill-shot/camera pan without being locked-on. Since the camera will move with your champion.

I also think you underestimate the severity the purple-team/locked angles creates. I know many people, that quit playing because of it. Not everyone has the dexterity to play free-camera, or the mental power to micro-manage it. But you know what, they would of spent money on your game if it wasn't such a night and day problem.

I also know people that auto-leave when they get purple team, just because they don't want to deal with it personally, or have a team mate feed because they can't play free-camera well, or because they're locked and on the purple bottom lane.

I just think it would be wise to avoid a mentality that some other companies have. Say square-enix with their first mmo, "this is how we intended you to do, so do it this way or don't play." that was a large part of that companies problems.


one of our designers rebinds the camera pan keys to wasd for similar reasons. If using the cursor to pan the camera is detrimental to positioning your cursor for skill shots/movement in your playstyle, you might consider this alternative control scheme with unlocked camera.

19
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 20599910)
i don't think you understand my point about team communication, if you mirror the map directions for up/down/left/right are no longer consistent for people in the same game. Also it causes the jungle and baron/dragon to mirror image itself. So your vocal/typed communication is based on two different views of the map.

Once again, this does not really solve the problem of champions who have skillshots past the view of your screen and you'll still have the same fov problems if you come at a team fight from the top.

It's technically risky because we would have to add in a bunch of tech all over the place. Not the say it can't be done, but it's a pretty tough sell internally for the benefits since it's not really a full solution to the problem. Unfortunately, we're probably not releasing the source art for the maps for modding!

I'd like to investigate some more elegant camera control options that bridge locked camera and free, but i don't think that map mirroring is as complete solution as i would like.

Thanks for your feedback, even if we can't always accomodate all of your requests, we are interested and listening!

20
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 23046255)
Quote:

Originally Posted by zarbiz (Hozzászólás 23043462)
has there been thought given to the idea of locking your camera relative to your champion, rather than centered on him? Say you start a match unlocked, move the camera down so you can see 2/3 in front and 1/3 behind, then you lock the camera and it keeps that position on your champ for the match? You'd still be able to lock it centered on you with holding spacebar, so the players who want it locked on center could still have that.

yes, you can look back into my earlier red posts in this thread! :d

tldr: This will completely bone you if you come at a team fight from bottom to top if you have your camera positioned for top to bottom movement and force you to manage your camera anyways. :(

21
Quote:

Originally Posted by boourns (Hozzászólás 23046668)
Quote:

Originally Posted by sanjio (in response to 19) (Hozzászólás 23044886)
people can & would adapt. Mirrored camera view for purple team would actually solve alot of problems & make many many people very happy. The way it is currently in lol & every other moba is so prehistoric man. The 3/4 angle of the terrain makes sense playing from blue team but not from purple..its very uncomfortable & unnatural.

Also you make it sound like people would be so confused if purple team had the same viewpoint as blue. Communication? Seriously? Thats just a cop out. Its pretty simple really...players would still refer to mid lane as mid lane but now instead of top/bot lane they'd likely be called baron side/lane & dragon side/lane. Of course i know this thread isn't really about mirrored camera views but i noticed it mentioned here so i figured i'd give my two cents.

Edit: Now if riot is truly "interested & listening" how about some feedback for the camera change petition http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1239123

communication is just one reason why i don't consider it a good solution. I list some other ones in the same reply that you quoted.

Having seen the stats on locked camera usage it's a very small number of people. I would not consider impeding communication or making our *entire* community change how they refer to things in the game a good fix for this issue.

I'll only be posting in this thread to keep information about this topic centralized in one place. I read the other threads, but i haven't seen any new information to comment on in them that i haven't addressed in this thread.

If someone were to make a new thread compiling everything i've posted here, i would be very grateful! :d <hint> <hint>


boourns 04-13-2012 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sedgitize (Hozzászólás 23147096)
I would like to add on to this.

That poll is a poll of players on this website. We can generally hypothesize that players who go through the trouble of the forums for games are probably putting more time into the game than many others (I would imagine the statistics show that far more people play the game than actively use these forums). If these are people that put more time into the game, then they are also likely to be players who are generally better than the players who don't put as much effort into it.

Now I obviously don't have the stats here but is this not a fair hypothesis? We can produce the theory that only about half of the players at this 'level' of the game are confident that purple is not at a major disadvantage. At lower average levels of skill, it is more likely that more people use locked camera all of the time because it is the default setting. As such we can hypothesize again that although the percentage may be roughly 50/50 for people on this website, it is likely that the issue is far more prevalent for players who put less time in.

Yes, it's all theoretical, but does it not make sense?

TL;DR: There are likely far more people that would vote for option one in the poll than option two, after we leave the setting of this website, as most users here are putting more time into the game than others.

I don't think I can disclose exact stats numbers, but I can tell you it is nowhere near 50/50 when we look at players who have the option for locked camera set on their computer. It's far, far less. A fraction of the size of our colorblind population in fact. Unfortunately, this makes it hard to lobby for changes which would change the experience for the vast majority of other players.

Also, as an aside, this is why we generally can't use forum polls as data for decision making (other than to find out interesting ideas from our players). Only a small part of our players actively participate in the forum and they select themselves which adds bias. Further, the ones that participate in a poll are even more self-selected because they must be interested in the topic in some way to even get into the post. Finally, they are probably biased to agree with the post for the same reason if they vote unless it is a very contentious issue. People who don't care likely won't vote or even read the post. So, while the poll that you refer to about camera changes indicates that people want the idea, it is likely that it only represents a small group of people... people who play with locked camera and want changes to the camera system.

Powerstoned 04-13-2012 08:46 PM

IMO, the best way to get more people to use an unlocked camera, is allowing players to zoom out more, 25-50% more. The problem for me is mostly using skill shots with a long aiming arrow/range.

When playing unlocked during play, if I'm moving away from an enemy champion, but wish to aim/use a long skill shot the opposite way my champ is moving, if I accidently get 1 pixel too close to the screen edge with my cursor while aiming, I'm borked. (lux is a good example I find). I lose my champion from the screen, and my camera view is thrown way off.

Scroll out more. Really it's my only complaint with the game, because it seems so easy to remedy. My guess is the most zoomed out view would be the new "normal" and would make the game look less nice in screenshots/video and detract from the cool looking champs and skins, and your marketing department doesn't want the game to look less pretty.

Doublechris 04-13-2012 08:47 PM

Boourns. Best name.

Tisaric 04-13-2012 09:11 PM

Couldn't read all your replies, but my opinion on locked v unlocked is just a matter of someone's playstyle. Sure, it may hinder some champions, but unless they're in extremely high elo (which if they are I would wonder why they are still locking their camera) they will be so used to the locked camera restrictions and compensate for it in their playstyle.

I LOVE that there's a hotkey for locking the camera on yourself that isn't a toggle though, it allows for playstyles like mine where I usually will hold down space but if I need to move the camera I can very easily.

dafedidi 04-13-2012 09:18 PM

Intereseting.

TheDirtyBirdy 04-13-2012 10:06 PM

I myself wish i would have never started playing with it locked, now i find myself unable to play what so ever with it unlocked.Not sure why it just feels so odd with it unlocked, and i just can't play the same.
'

Maybe if it was zoom'd out more it would help alot but i don't know for sure.

Werewolf Link 04-13-2012 10:12 PM

Allow us to zoom out further, or switch the map based on team Color, so that no matter whether you are Blue or Purple, you start in the bottom left and work towards the top right.

Abjurant 04-13-2012 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerstoned (Hozzászólás 23169344)
IMO, the best way to get more people to use an unlocked camera, is allowing players to zoom out more, 25-50% more. The problem for me is mostly using skill shots with a long aiming arrow/range.

When playing unlocked during play, if I'm moving away from an enemy champion, but wish to aim/use a long skill shot the opposite way my champ is moving, if I accidently get 1 pixel too close to the screen edge with my cursor while aiming, I'm borked. (lux is a good example I find). I lose my champion from the screen, and my camera view is thrown way off.

Scroll out more. Really it's my only complaint with the game, because it seems so easy to remedy. My guess is the most zoomed out view would be the new "normal" and would make the game look less nice in screenshots/video and detract from the cool looking champs and skins, and your marketing department doesn't want the game to look less pretty.


yes. this. and. this.

seriously, my friend.. kind of a hacker, hue. he hacked the lol view so he could see about 100% further out, i mean he can see from the fountain to the start of the jungle... just. i tried playing that and i really didn't like but, but in all seriousness, WHY can't we have this. it won't be a balance concern because we already have the minimap which allows us to see everything. it would be really cool to see the whole league of legends at once....


but.. now that i think about it. is it because of lag? that why? :\

RG Stylus 04-13-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerstoned (Hozzászólás 23169344)
IMO, the best way to get more people to use an unlocked camera, is allowing players to zoom out more, 25-50% more. The problem for me is mostly using skill shots with a long aiming arrow/range.

When playing unlocked during play, if I'm moving away from an enemy champion, but wish to aim/use a long skill shot the opposite way my champ is moving, if I accidently get 1 pixel too close to the screen edge with my cursor while aiming, I'm borked. (lux is a good example I find). I lose my champion from the screen, and my camera view is thrown way off.

Scroll out more. Really it's my only complaint with the game, because it seems so easy to remedy. My guess is the most zoomed out view would be the new "normal" and would make the game look less nice in screenshots/video and detract from the cool looking champs and skins, and your marketing department doesn't want the game to look less pretty.

+1d

I love playing with locked camera and the only thing hindering this are long skillshots, for global ults I click and drag on the mini map or unlock to fire. I don't think I will ever play with the screen unlocked.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:19 AM.


(c) 2008 Riot Games Inc