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-   -   Atma's nerf makes literally no sense. (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1996951)

hashinshin 04-08-2012 12:55 AM

Atma's nerf makes literally no sense.
 
Since apparently this is really happening I guess this when combined with the wit's end and dorans nerfs will only strengthen riot's apparent want to have top lane be vlad versus kennen every game. The red post that was posted failed to address even one issue raised by anyone at all, and just gave a blank statement that could've just been posted practically anywhere. Talked at is a little annoying when I wanted to be talked with. And the real travesty is that riot tried to hide this from their patch preview. As if this wasn't a major change. They just wanted to slip it in the patch notes and deal with it then.

1500 upvote update! Sup guys. So after thinking about it I think riot is right. Since giving all the stat multiplying from tank items to one item makes it OP we should nerf atma's... then give other tank items stat multipliers! Since having defense = offense is bad, lets have defense = more defense stat multipliers. +20% health passive on warmogs. +20% armor on frozen heart. +20% MR on banshee's veil. Now I know what you're thinking... that's not going to keep on par with the 30% on deathcap and all the crit/attackspeed/damage/crit damage from AD! Well I guess it won't, but **** if it won't be funny. If you can't tell I'm being incredibly sarcastic and trying to get across the point that defense = more defense would be far less fun to fight than defense = offense, AND that removing stat multipliers from tank items while giving none back is just bad for business. I guarantee that if defensive items multiplied defensive stats that we'de all be clawing our eyes out at how it takes 5 minutes to kill Singed. (Insert "doesn't it already?" joke) and additionally we'de all be complaining about how pure tanks like Maokai can just beeline for the carry and spam CC all day while having their multiplied defenses keep them alive.

200 upvote update!
... holy **** 2000 upvotes. Well all you players might want to start playing a lot of Kennen/Vlad/Rumble cause it appears riot isn't gonna budge.

Okay, if tanky damage is overpowered then it'd be overpowered... as a class.

Tanky damage is not overpowered.

But lets go in to detail, lets list three arguments as to why the Atma's nerf is ridiculous.

If you want to nerf key select champions (the most likely one being Lee Sin) then just... nerf them. By nerfing atma's you're nerfing: AD Sion. Wukong. Renekton. Volibear. Yorick. Xin Zhao. Trundle. Ect. Are these champions overpowered? Do they deserve to lose even 15 damage? But I digress, beyond nerfs to an entire class because you want to nerf maybe 1-2 champions lets figure out some REAL arguments against this.

Lets go in to more detail. (This has the actual points for people who want a TLDR section. This is the part that matters.)
1. Atma's is for late game tanky damage. Who dominates late game? Ranged carries. Who has shown to be a near unstoppable force late game? Ranged carries. Know who has been dominating the tournament scene? Ranged carries. So whats with this fairly hefty hit to tanky damage?

What is the only class that can be consistently left off a team? The bruiser. The bruiser is the ONLY class that can 100% be left off a team and still be perfectly fine. AP top, AP mid, AD/support bot, tank in the jungle. This has shown to be a very consistent and powerful strategy. (Hell, support top support mid support bot is more powerful than a team with a bruiser!) Hell I'm fairly certain that any team without a ranged carry has gotten a 100% loss rate in tournaments. However, a team without a bruiser is likely over 50% win rate just due to how powerful double WotA is. (Yet no double WotA nerfs I notice.)

2. Don't give me "the item is OP and we don't want to balance people around it!" excuse. If it WAS OP then people that used it would be OP. That's like saying IE is OP because Kog'maw uses it. Better yet, frozen heart is OP because Ryze uses it. This argument is outright silly. If it WAS OP we'de be seeing more bruisers, more bruisers using it, or at least more PEOPLE using it. Seeing 0-2 atma's a game is a far cry from seeing 2-2 IE a game, 2-4 deathcap a game, 2-4 shurelia's a game.

Hell if atma's was OP and the entire class had to be balanced around it then perhaps even all bruisers would be building it? Why is it that many bruisers go with a maw/bloodthirster build? Are you suggesting these two items are MORE OP than atma's? And don't give me a "well then clearly you can live without atma's!" excuse cause thats more BS. That's like saying we can nerf IE because some ranged carries go BT/PD instead of IE/PD.

3.
And lastly: Remember when people complained bloodrazers was OP? (Yes at LoL's release bloodrazers was the best 1-slot damage item and was complained about.) Then what was it, trinity was OP? Then gunblade? Now Atma's? You notice that you only nerfed one of these items, and one of these items is absent from the competitive scene entirely (getting cutlass and never finishing gunblade is standard Jax procedure.) So you have to stop and ask yourself: Is bending over to whatever is FotM at the low ranks really what you want?

SOMETHING will always dominate the lower ranks, why is it a crime for tanky damage to do it? Should Blizzard be nerfing void rays because I find it difficult to beat? Terran bio-balls kick my ass, clear sign of OP. Maybe Capcam should consider some sweeping shoto clone nerfs because I find them ridiculous. I played DotA 2 once and some dude killed me. Don't remember his name, but we should probably go ahead and nerf the entire agility stat, from orbit. Its the only way to be sure.

-Bonus section added. Advanced reaidng. If you don't understand the game then you WILL not understand this. Do not respond to this part unless you seriously understand the game.-

Atma's is the stat multiplier of tanky damage. Because defensive stats don't multiply without an item like atma's they'd quickly fade in to nothingness by late game. Consider: IE + PD = you do ~181% of your AD on each attack on average. This means that BT you buy is now worth 81% more AD. That's a freaking LOT. Bruisers needs an item with SERIOUS stat multiplication in order to keep up late game. And they don't even keep up entirely, they just merely stay relevant to the game. Without such an item (And with the proposed 25% nerf) they'll start fading off harder and faster. Champions like Wukong who suck all early game merely to start becoming fantastic mid/late game are going to become less powerful then. Deathcap gives 30% more AP. Deathfire grasp gives both CDR AND another AP ratio. Hourglass gives your champion 1.5 seconds invulnerability. The only thing keeping bruisers late game relevant is atma's at its current state. If atma's is nerfed then we'll have to start buffing champions like Wukong up, or making tank items more powerful on their own. Both options are pretty terrible.

50 armor + 50 MR is 50 armor + 50 MR. IE + PD = far more powerful than one champion with IE and one champion with PD. Atma's is the item that allows bruisers to keep pace with multiplying stats.

And lastly, atma's allows tank items to have multiplying stats, but doesn't allow TANKS (whose main power is CC) to have multiplying stats.

Couple of things that annoy me greatly whilst reading the replies to this thread:

The default position for any fight is at long range. This means that a melee champion has to figure out a way in to range, where as a ranged champion merely has to figure out how to keep the default position. If I gap close and you use an escape move then I'm losing, we're back to default range. Melee requires proper timing in knowing how to use CC, ally's CC, positioning to not have to use their gap closer to get in to the original melee range (and can then use it after the escape move.) Go play the following games: Footies (WC3/SC2 map.) Total War. Natural Selection. Bloodline Champions. I GUARANTEE that you will find ranged champions far easier to pick up and play because you are AT DEFAULT in your preferred range. The only time melee champions become easier is when they have repeated CC/gap closers that allow them to ignore default range.

So when you say "DERP DERP GAP CLOSERS DERP!" why don't you note the fact that a gap closer merely allows a melee champion to overcome default range, and that properly using an escape move after a gap closer resets you to default range, long range, your range. If you set the default settings on a game to something that favored you would your friends not say "hey why are you rigging this?" I guess what I'm saying is that its not as easy as you think it is to play melee. Hell, its barely EVER as easy as it looks to do something you think is easy. Except for Warwick, he IS as easy as you think it is.

Additionally to all you "bruisers are why tanks aren't doing good!" people...

Alistar: Common pick. Both in jungle and support.
Cho'gath: Common pick. Jungle, Mid, Top.
Amumu: Below average pick. Jungle.
Galio: Extremely common pick. Mid, support.
Leona: Common pick, support.
Maokai: Common pick, jungle.
Nautilus: Common pick, jungle.
Rammus: Common pick, jungle.
Sejuani: Sub par.
Shen: Extremely common pick. Top, jungle.

Which tank again is doing bad? Because there is ONE. BAD. TANK the entire arch type is doing bad?

hashinshin 04-08-2012 01:00 AM

Well the upvote and downvote war is cute and all, but I always do so much more enjoy a good counter argument.

xNixillis 04-08-2012 01:01 AM

Riot be hatin' on the Tanky Deeps. Warmog nerf, Wit's End cost increase, Atma nerf, when will it end? ._.

Edit: This is war Riot. Give us back our Atmas and our Wit's End!

Firellius 04-08-2012 01:02 AM

Weren't there a lot of complaints about how M5 dominated the tournament or at least the finals with a team full of tanky DPS?

hashinshin 04-08-2012 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xNixillis (Hozzászólás 22917201)
Riot be hatin' on the Tanky Deeps. Warmog nerf, Wit's End cost increase, Atma nerf, when will it end? ._.

Apparently when they nerf tanky damage enough that people just start putting vlad/kennen/rumble top every game and bruisers are phased out. Then we gotta nerf AP till AD goes top. Then... well maybe bruisers will win that race to the bottom.

hashinshin 04-08-2012 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firellius (Hozzászólás 22917217)
Weren't there a lot of complaints about how M5 dominated the tournament or at least the finals with a team full of tanky DPS?

And Fnatic dominated with double AP. And Dignitas dominated with triple support.

One team has a preference that isn't the current meta?! BETTER NERF THEM SO THEY GET BACK IN TO THE META!

(Russians love having the biggest things. Look at WW2 tanks.)

Firellius 04-08-2012 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hashinshin (Hozzászólás 22917243)
And Fnatic dominated with double AP. And Dignitas dominated with triple support.

One team has a preference that isn't the current meta?! BETTER NERF THEM SO THEY GET BACK IN TO THE META!

(Russians love having the biggest things. Look at WW2 tanks.)

But they didn't win, did they?

Tanky DPS appeared to be the strongest strategy.

EDIT: Anyway, in response to the OP: Your offense should not scale with your defense in any situation. That's hazardous to the game. That's why Atma's is getting nerfed.

Rooster Raiden 04-08-2012 01:05 AM

The honest truth of the matter was that there didn't seem to be a reason to not buy Atma's.

I think that this is a small step in Riot balancing items and classes.

The key here is that I think Riot is learning from mistakes and is hoping to generate new item selection as well as pave the way for new design elements.

hashinshin 04-08-2012 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Firellius (Hozzászólás 22917260)
But they didn't win, did they?

Tanky DPS appeared to be the strongest strategy.

EDIT: Anyway, in response to the OP: Your offense should not scale with your defense in any situation. That's hazardous to the game. That's why Atma's is getting nerfed.

Why? Why is it hazardous? It hasn't proven to be a balance issue yet. So why is it hazardous?

JuanDeages 04-08-2012 01:06 AM

Shyvana is displeased with the nerf.


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