League of Legends Community

League of Legends Community (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/index.php)
-   Champion Feedback (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   @Riot Teemo NEED buffs, and here is why. (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1627216)

Yfrappefort 12-21-2011 06:56 PM

In depth analysis of Teemo and his current state.
 
*UPDATED FOR SEASON 3*

A bit about me : I consider myself a pretty good Teemo player. My Teemo dedication is unmatched. I have tried played him all roles, tried all builds (Pure AD, Pure AP, AP/AS, On-hit/AS, On-hit/tanky, Hybrid, etc.), so please keep the "just build him right" or "don't suck with Teemo" comments to yourself. The post is not about the build or skill level, it's about the champion himself.

If I could change the name of my post (to a less aggressive tone), I would. It would be : "In depth analysis of Teemo and his current state." Sadly, I can't.

As I will explain below, I think Teemo is the kind of champion that cannot be buffed or nerfed without making him either OP or UP because of how his kit is made (invisible power). He's also very binary, and suffer from the "feast or famine" syndrome. When you fall behind as Teemo, it's very, very hard to come back. This is why I'm proposing a rework. Here is the link : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...5#post28176615

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a quick history of Teemo's balance changes. His downfall started long, long ago, with the Brand patch in April 2011.

Release Notes v1.0.0.115 – 4/11/2011
Mon, 2011-04-11

Teemo

- Noxious Trap: Mushroom reload time increased to 35/31/27 from 30/26/22
Damage reduced to 200/400/600 from 250/475/700
Fixed a bug that calculated the AP coefficient lower than intended
- Move Quick: Cooldown increased to 22 seconds from 13

I played him before that, and I don't think he was that strong back then to deserve such huge nerfs. Then almost one year after, Riot gave the little badger some hope :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udyr (Hozzászólás 21516786)
Teemo
  • Health per level increased to 82 from 77
  • Move Quick's passive component now shows a cooldown timer
  • Noxious Trap arm time reduced to 1 seconds from 2

And

Quote:

Originally Posted by Udyr (Hozzászólás 23296028)
Teemo
  • Move Quick cooldown reduced to 17 seconds from 22
  • Fixed a bug where Noxious Trap's recharge time wouldn't update with new ranks or cooldown reduction until reaching full ammo charges (3)
  • Fixed a bug where Teemo's 'Toxic Shot' was doing less damage than intended at higher attack speeds.

The two above helped a bit, but it did not change his core problems and his lack of decent items build patch (beside on-hit). Then he got this one :

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiotNyandalee (Hozzászólás 28245877)
Teemo
  • Toxic Shot
    • Damage on impact increased to 10/20/30/40/50 (+0.4 Ability Power) from 9/18/27/36/45 (+0.14 Ability Power)
    • Poison Ability Power ratio reduced to 0.1 from 0.14
    • Fixed: Fixed a bug where the poison was lasting longer than intended
    • Fixed: Damage values will now update correctly when Teemo hits a unit with a lower level Toxic Shot poison

Finally! Teemo could actually get a stat (AP) and make it worthwhile! With the new items in season 3, we even got the hope Teemo could become some kind of "AoE mage". It was better then nothing! But then...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morello (Hozzászólás 32395802)
Teemo
  • Toxic Shot
    • Ability Power ratio on impact reduced to 0.3 from 0.4
  • Noxious Trap
    • Damage reduced at later ranks to 200/325/450 from 200/400/600

From what I understand, Riot nerfed him to improve diversity (see the link just below with a Riot respond). That does not make much sense. These huge nerfs (again), I don't think they were needed at all. The two posts below (one by me) talk more about there. To put it short tough : Teemo is actually worst in season 3 (again, this is based on my experience when playing/fighting him) since it's easy to itemize/mastery VS his early game and AS items cost even more. I think Riot went too far with these nerfs.

Morello replie to Teemo's nerfs :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morello (Hozzászólás 32439615)
Being OP is fun, that's true, but we do have to address it :)

Yeah, so OP he has not yet seen any play in the competitive scene since the beginning of season 3...(edit : he did get picked once by Reginald, but honestly it was more of a "trololo pick" then anything else. TSM lost the game of course)

Here are the two posts regarding his last nerfs :

- Mine : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...3#post32405773 (Red post in it)

- HothsotGG's post : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ghlight=runaan


It has always been like this. Teemo get some buffs, then he get some way harsher nerfs (poor little guy :()

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Teemo design is old and outdated, and his kit just promote passive gameplay, wich is not very interesting. I think he has never been in an "OP" state unless you played badly against him. Let's take a quick look.


Q- Blinding Dart - Obscures an enemy's vision with a powerful venom, dealing damage to the target unit and causing all attacks to miss for the duration.
Deals 80/125/170/215/260 (+0.8) magic damage and causes the target to miss all of their attacks for 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 seconds.
Cost 70/80/90/100/110 Mana
Range 680

The problem: This is one of the two soft CC Teemo got, and sadly, it’s the weakest of all CC. Blind only works against AA, and there are very few champions, aside carry, who relies heavily on AA. As new champions get released, there are less and less champions that Teemo can actually counter with his blind. It's unreliable, because it only works on some champions. For exemple, blind will make Renekton’s stun and Nasus’s Q miss, while Vayne can still use tumble and proc silver bolt even when blinded. Blind is just bad because a stun, fear, supress or knock up all have the same effect, but they also prevent the target from doing anything, not just AA.

W- Move Quick - Teemo scampers around, passively increasing his movement speed until he is struck by an enemy champion or turret. Teemo can sprint to gain bonus movement speed that isn't stopped by being struck for a short time.

Passive: Teemo's Movement Speed is increased by 10/14/18/22/26% unless he has been damaged by an enemy champion or turret in the last 5 seconds.

Active: Teemo sprints, gaining twice his normal bonus for 3 seconds. This bonus is not lost when struck.
Cost 40 Mana

The problem: This is Teemo’s chasing and escape ability. The passive on it is nice for moving around out of combat. Unfortunatly, it’s almost useless when Teemo need it the most: in team fights. Since the bonus is lost upon being hit, Teemo is very slow when he needs to be the most mobile. I also think the active on it is quite weak. A 3 seconds speed boost with no added effect for 17 secs CD is not much when you think of it. Just compare it to many gap closer (CD and effect) and you will see how bad it is. Since it's only a small speed boost that offers no protection from incoming CC, it's barely noticeable in team fights.

E- Toxic Shot - Each of Teemo's attacks will poison the target, dealing damage on impact and each second after for 4 seconds.
Teemo's basic attacks poison their target, dealing 10/20/30/40/50 (+0.3) magical damage upon impact and 6/12/18/24/30 (+0.1) magical damage each second for 4 seconds.

The problem: This is Teemo’s main damaging source. It’s quite handy to have early game for last hiting and harassing the enemy. However, the more the game goes on, the less useful his poison becomes. In the end, the damage is just a minor annoyance, and I don't think it's doing as much damage as it should (even if you build 100% AP). Also, this is a passive only ability, and since Teemo's kit is already quite "passive", it's boring.

R- Noxious Trap - Teemo places an explosive poisonous trap using one of the mushrooms stored in his pack. If an enemy steps on the trap it will release a poisonous cloud, slowing enemies and damaging them over time.
Uses a stored mushroom to place a trap that detonates if an enemy steps on it, spreading poison to nearby enemies that slows movement speed by 30/40/50% and deals 200/325/450 (+0.8) magic damage over 4 seconds. Traps last 10 minutes.

Teemo forages for a mushroom every X seconds, but he is only big enough to carry 3 at once.
Cost 75/100/125 Mana

The problem: This is Teemo’s signature move, and the main reason he is so hated. The slow is nice, and combined with wards, it provide additionnal map awareness. The problem is in the damage it deals. Currently, any champions who get MR or with self-healing, shield or sustain (Udyr, for exemple) can step on 3+ of his mushrooms in a row with very little punishment, since the dot does not stack and the impact damage is very low. The fact that melee can still destroy mushrooms with melee attack without them exploding in their face is also really frustrating. Just like his passive, the more the game goes on, the less reliable his mushrooms become (mainly because of oracle or just some well-placed vision wards).

Passive- Camouflage - If Teemo stands still and takes no actions for 3 seconds, he becomes stealthed indefinitely. After leaving stealth, Teemo gains the Element of Surprise, increasing his attack speed by 40% for 3 seconds.

The problem: This allow Teemo to hide and ambush champions, as well as escaping ganks. The passive force him to play really passive, and is not very interesting. It’s mostly good early, but you can’t really use it by endgame because it puts you at too much risk (*cough oracle again cough*). Since you can’t move to keep the stealth, it may put you at more risks then you expected when a teamfight starts. The one who planned to ambush become the ambushed. The more the game goes on, the more useless his passive become (normally passive gets stronger as the game goes on, not weaker).

2. Now, on top of his kit, Teemo AA range is low :

Teemo’s current auto-attack range is 500. That is low. In fact, it’s the lowest among all ranged who rely on AA to do damage. Sivir is on par with him, but she got some AoE, better chasing, a group AS/MS steroid and a CC shield to compensate. Even TF is at 525 and he got AoE damage + hard CC and global map presence. Teemo only got single target ability and no hard CC. Considering that and how squishy Teemo is, I really think he need that range buff (from 500 to 525, for exemple) so that he’s not instantly focused and killed in teamfights. It would also make his laning phase a bit easier against champions with high range or gap closer.


3. Teemo is the "Switft Scout". However, his tittle does not fit the way you play him in game.

A. The "Swift" part is from his W : I think that this ability, as an escape and chasing tool, is underwhelming.


Before the Brand patch, Teemo’s move quick was a 3 second boost on a 13 sec CD. Now it’s a 3 second boost on a 17 sec CD. For such a long CD, I'dd say the boost either needs to be increased in duration, or it needs to have an added effect (like a cleanse). Teemo can perform well against champs that cannot get to him directly, such as Garen and Singed. However, he’s having a hard time against champs with instant gap closer. It gets even worst if they have CC with it. Exemple are Irelia, Renekton and Talon. These champions, and many others, pretty much eat Teemo for breakfast, because his 3 sec escape will generally not allow him to survive their assault.

Just for facts, let’s see a list of champs with instant or very fast gap closer (in alphabetical order):

1. Aatrox (Dark Flight) / 2. Akali (Shadow Dance) / 3. Amumu (Bandage Toss) / 4. Blitzcrank (Rocket Grab) / 5. Caitlyn (90 Caliber Net) / 6. Corki (Valkyrie) / 7. Elise (Rappel) / 8. Ezreal (Arcane Shift) / 9. Fiora (Lunge) / 10. Fizz (Urchin Strike and Playful/Trickster) / 11. Gragas (Body Slam) / 12. Graves (Quickdraw) / 13. Irelia (Bladesurge) / 14. Jarvan IV (Lance/standard combo) / 15. Jax (Leap Strike) / 16. Jayce (To the Skies!) / 17. Kassadin (Riftwalk) / 18. Katarina (Shunpo) / 19. Kennen (Lightning Rush) / 20. Kha'Zix (Leap) / 21. Leblanc (Distortion) / 22. Lee Sin (Sonic Wave/Resonating Strike, Safeguard) / 23. Leona (Zenith Blade) / 24. Maokai (Twisted Advance) / 25. Master Yi (Alpha Strike) / 26. Nautilus (Dredge Line) / 27. Nidalee (Pounce) / 28. Pantheon (Aegis of Zeonia) / 29. Poppy (Heroic Charge) / 30. Renekton (Slice and Dice) / 31. Rengar (Unseen Predator)/ 32. Riven (Broken Wings and Valor) / 33. Shaco (Deceive) / 34. Shen (Shadow Dash) / 35. Talon (Cutthroat) / 36. Tristana (Rocket Jump) / 37. Tryndamere (Spinning Slash) / 38. Vayne (Tumble) / 39. Vi (Vault Breaker) / 40. Wukong (Nimbus Strike) / 41. Xin Zhao (Audacious Charge) / 42. Zac (Elastic Slingshot) / 43. Ziggs (Satchel Charge)

As we see, so many champions can close the gap very quickly between Teemo and them (and that is excluding ultimate, aside Kassadin and Akali, since they can use it very often), and this number will keep increasing with all the new champions coming out. Teemo rely on kiting to win, but with the increasing numbers of gap closer, it’s something he’s having more and more difficulty to do. You'd think someone "swift" would be more evasive (like Fizz).

B. The "Scout" part : I think this part of Teemo's tittle is a lie.

What part of Teemo's kit make you feel like a scout? Let's see, his Q? Nope. His W? Not really. His E? Not at all. His R? Not one bit. His passive? Please...how can you scout while not being able to move? I think his ultimate is what actually makes him look flawed in design (in my opinion), since you have to facecheck every bush in order to place mushrooms. Usually, a scout is supposed to have a way of scouting ahead without putting himself in too much risks. I think Teemo's kit is lacking this. An ability that really makes you feel like he can "scout" things without getting destroyed instantly (exemple : Ashe's Hawkshot, Lux's Lucent Singularity, etc.)

Because of that, I think Teemo lack the kit to truly scout. On top of that, he is squishy.

Teemo is extremely squishy. Why is that a problem? Because he does not have the damage nor the utility to make up for it. Think about it. Name me a few champions in that situation. Veigar and Annie? Huge nuke potential and hard CC to make up for it. Vayne? Lots of reposition skills, damage steroid + combat stealth, good chasing and better AA range to make up for it. Teemo? Let's see...

Pros : Good early game poke (top lane VS melee only). Good mobility outside of combat. Additionnal map awareness + slowing mines. Can shut down some ADC briefly.

Cons : Very squishy. 500 AA (shortest of all ranged) and slow missile speed. Scale horribly into late game. No burst. No steroid (his passive does not really count). No hard CC. Bad escape/chasing.

He got more weaknesses then strengths. I don't see how he can be balanced with his current kit.

4. Teemo is hated. A. Lot. Why? There are various reasons.


What is Teemo's role? That is the question some people will ask when playing Teemo. The truth is, he is very hard to place in a team, because he got no precise role, and cannot do any real role.

- He is not an AD carry: None of Teemo’s ability scale off AD, and he got no steroid of any kind to help him do this job (not counting the passive for obvious reasons). His short range and lack of damage also prevents him from doing this role in an effective way. Since Teemo deal mostly magic damage, lifesteal is also a poor choice on him. Any ranged AD carry can do the job better.

- He is not an AP carry: Even though Teemo’s ability scale off AP, he cannot build purely AP. Why? Because he depends way too much on mushrooms to do anything, and he is gimping his team as soon as the enemy team get oracle (even more now that it persist trough death). His poison does not benefit from spell vamp or other effect that normally works with AP ability (such as Rylai's). Overall, his presence in team fights will be very weak, and he will die very quickly. Any AP carry can do the job better.

- He can’t jungle: Ok, maybe he “can” jungle now with the new mastery and surge spell, but honestly, there is NO reason at all to pick him over any other viable junglers. Any junglers can do the job better.

- He can’t support: By supports, I mean the current Meta, which is 0 CS. Supports can generally do good with very few items, like Janna, Sona, etc. because they have CC and/or heals to assists their team. Sadly, this is not the case with Teemo. Not only does he lack a heal and decent CC but he also needs items to be decent, and by items I mean lots. Having almost no damage/health items and just standard support items (gp10 for exemple), you will just put a giant sign on your head saying “gank me, I’m even easier to kill” and will further increase the global taunt. The only reason he is tagged “support” is because of his mushrooms, but these are not enough for him to do this role. Any supports can do the job better.

So what role is there left for Teemo? Not much aside a "counterpick" to very specific champions (like Garen, Singed, Nasus). You can almost only play him as a solo top, to replace a melee bruiser. His low range prevents him from going bot lane with a support, and he can’t possibly face an AP carry in mid without getting owned (again, mostly because of his abyssal range). What does he bring to the team? A blind to annoy the ranged carry. Some additional map awareness. Decent split push. That’s about it.

"But Teemo is a great counterpick!", some might say, that's not even true. He can't even do his "counterpick" role well nor does he "hard counter" anyone: Teemo is a ranged. Most solo tops are melee (not even that true anymore with bruisers fading away, replaced by Jayce, Elise, etc). Usually ranged > melee for harassing. Try putting any other range on solo top VS the current melee meta and see how you dominate 10x more then with Teemo. Regardless, he is still stuck to be on solo top. It's the only way for him to farm (and his farming is bad unless you blow all your shrooms on minions) "safely" without getting dominated and the only way for him to level up quickly. I don't think he was created to be a "counterpick" in the first place, it's his current state that force him to go there. From my experience, Teemo's advantage early game quickly fade away as soon as his opponent reach 6 and buy 1 item. Oh, and that is just considering 1v1 scenario, not even counting the fact he is super easy to gank with most jungler/solo top combo.

This guy sums up pretty well what I think of "counterpick" :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaede (Hozzászólás 21248893)
Problem is 'counterpick' is a feature not a role. Having it as a role is a bad design principle when creating champions. Teemo needs to be looked at so he has a defining role and is not just 'a good top laner against Tryn etc'

Incredibly short range, + low (almost lowest) base move speed + natually incredibly squishy is not a good combination. Map awareness is nice but wards are better with greater range and more reliable. Additionally wards don't give away that you are now aware that where the enemy is. Also oracles > mushrooms.

I don't mind that split push Teemo no longer exists. But 'counterpick' Teemo is not a valid alternative.

Also,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaede (Hozzászólás 21250143)
It is not a good situation to say 'this champion is only really viable based on choices made by the other team.' Its ok to say X champion is great and is a really good counterpick for A,B,C champions.'

So why so many people hate Teemo? Mostly for the points above, but also because:

a) He can’t do any role. He is a jack of all trade, master of none. People like it when their teammates pick specific roles (especially in ranked), because they can pick champions accordingly with what the team need. I always get asked when I play Teemo “AD or AP Teemo?” because you can never know what Teemo is going to be. Teemo suffer from a personality problem and is very limited in builds to be good, so people don’t like it.

b) They hate his mushrooms, DOTS in general and find him "annoying". Not much to explain here. People just hate to stomp on his mushrooms. They hate his poison. Yet, if you build some MR or get an oracle, voila! You have countered Teemo. I don't know any other ultimate (his passive too) that can be countered with only 400g.

c) But most importantly, they hate the fact that you need to be extremely good with Teemo just to make him look decent. Sadly, there are few good Teemo players and that’s why people hate when players choose him. I can’t count the number of times when I picked Teemo and people told me things like we were going to lose or that I was going to feed, even if I ended up doing very well and we won. Granted, Teemo CAN’T carry his team, he will do well only if you are very good with him, but also if the other lanes don’t feed. Many times have I owned the top lane and farmed very well, only to find out I was useless once we reached team fights because the game was not in our favor.

Even with all that, Teemo is still quite popular, and I think this alone is a reason to change him to be a less toxic/obnoxious champion to play against.


TL;DR Teemo has no place in this game, aside being an annoying brat. He need a real role. He need to be more rewarding if you are good with him, and less annoying to play against. He must be more then just the "cute mascot of Riot" and a global bait. Teemo is supposed to be a fearsome killer (if you look at his lore) but currently, he is not very threatening (global taunt anyone?). There is a reason why Riot gave away the number of times Teemo died: because he is so easy to kill! There is a reason why we almost never see him in competitive play: because a lot of champions do the job better than him, with equal skill and gear. Solution? I would put him on the rework priority list (after Heimerdinger).

That's that. Thanks for reading!

EDIT 1 : OVER 100 upvotes in 2 days! That's a good start!

EDIT 2 : 200 upvotes! Going up fast!

EDIT 3 : 300+ upvotes! Merry Christmas everyone!

EDIT 4 : 500 upvotes in 5 days!!!

EDIT 5 : Reached 700 upvotes before 2012! Happy new year!

EDIT 6 : 800 upvotes!!!

EDIT 7 : The post was moved from general chat to champion feedback, yet still no reply? I don't really know what to think of this...

EDIT 8 : Still got to 900 upvotes! Now 80+ pages and over 25k views!

EDIT 9 : For those who think The Rain Man "owned" as Teemo in the M5 tournament, go see page 87-88 for a true analysis.

EDIT 10 : January 25th 2012 : Finally reached 1k upvotes!!! Yeah! :D

EDIT 11 : February 6th 2012 : 1100 upvotes! Still rising! It's all thanks to your support summoners. This post means nothing without you guys.

EDIT 12 : February 15th 2012 : 1200 upvotes! Need more! Now 120+ pages and over 45k views!

EDIT 13 : Don't forget to encourage all Teemo posts and not just mine! Special thanks to Yoaisha for gathering most of them here : Gathering of Teemo Threads

EDIT 14 : February 28th 2012 : 1300 upvotes! Now 135+ pages and over 50k views! Thanks to everyone again for supporting our favorite Yordle!

EDIT 15 : March 14th 2012 : 1400 upvotes! Now 150+ pages and over 60k views! It just keep rising!

EDIT 16 : April 1st 2012 : Over 1500 upvotes...No, this is not an April fool! :p

EDIT 17 : April 29th 2012 : 1600 upvotes! Since it was moved from GD, this post still made it to about twice as much upvotes!

EDIT 18 : July 22th 2012 : Sweet. I was not expecting to get to 1700, but here we are. Proof that Teemo still need to be looked at seriously!

EDIT 19 : August 16th 2012 : OMG! 1800 upvotes!

EDIT 20 : December 20th 2012 : 1900 upvotes! Getting close to 2k!

EDIT 21 : June 29th 2013 : 2k upvotes! Woot!

oozaboo 12-21-2011 06:57 PM

You wrote a lot of stuff. This means you get upvoted.

nomercydx 12-21-2011 07:02 PM

bump

StopTryingKid 12-21-2011 07:03 PM

He doesn't need a buff

Panzerfaust 12-21-2011 07:03 PM

Champion Feedback forum ----------->

Yfrappefort 12-21-2011 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StopTryingKid (Hozzászólás 18782154)
He doesn't need a buff

Then explain it to me please. If you can. You probably can't, because you did not even read I did not want this kind of troll comments here.

Yfrappefort 12-21-2011 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust (Hozzászólás 18782180)
Champion Feedback forum ----------->

I tried in the champion feedback forum. Never got an answer. So I am posting here.

Edit : Red moved my post back here! -_-*

Serenity Now 12-21-2011 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panzerfaust (Hozzászólás 18782180)
Champion Feedback forum ----------->

Sadly, reds never seem to post in champion feedback forum :(

a cute melon 12-21-2011 07:32 PM

**** that champion

EagleSun 12-21-2011 07:37 PM

he doesnt fit into the meta, you're right

but he is quite strong, I assure you.

he offers hybrid damage much like kogmaw and kayle, and I've seen him carry hundreds of times. Don't get me wrong, I feel like his blind is a bit weak, but other than that I really like his kit. It gives his entire team exceptional map awareness in addition to giving them additional cc/damage for escaping/ganking/chasing.

Teemo is a weird case, he seems UP on paper, but I feel like his map awareness definitely makes up for it.

I don't feel like he needs buffs.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:23 PM.


(c) 2008 Riot Games Inc