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-   -   Why do junglers refuse to help lanes that are doing poorly? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1626116)

MetalGuitarist 12-21-2011 12:50 PM

Why do junglers refuse to help lanes that are doing poorly?
 
Every time I'm playing with a jungler if there is a lane that does poorly they simply refuse to help, saying "it's hopeless anyways" while typing repeatedly how terrible they think that lane is, that they should uninstall, etc.

Do people only jungle for the purpose of getting kills? It seems to me that if there isn't a strong chance of them getting one then they won't even bother. Is jungling only viable if they are able to get ganks?

I'll give an example from a recent game. Bot was getting dominated by jax and renekton and we were clearly outmatched, they killed both me (gragas) and xin(which was our fault for overextending) within 5 minutes. Our jungle WW decides instead of coming to help and gank bot he just complains that bot isn't doing well. Now we decide to hang back more and once again they destroy us both, while WW is just helping mid which was doing decently. By now bot is so fed they keep destroying us and everyone just starts crying and whining. WW and leblanc then decide once we have died for the 3rd time to come and try and gank by themselves and proceeds to complain that they have been fed when they both die.

/rant

TheLamentingLoon 12-21-2011 01:27 PM

Bad junglers, i.e. they don't get jungling. Happened to a friend of mine just the other day who is a good player but was having issues on bottom. The jungler never showed despite periodic requests. It also didn't help that the rest of his team decided to go two top and one mid leaving him 1v2 up against Urgot and Taric. Why? No clue. Little wonder they lost.

There is a belief that with the way Riot has now designed jungling in Season 2 that many players who would not consider jungling prior are now doing so while failing to understand what it takes to fill this position.

It sounds though like you have a run of bad luck. I've been fortunate lately to play with some good junglers.

Aloretec 12-22-2011 05:55 AM

Junglers don't gank fed lanes because at best you're going to average out the lane,which isn't going to help because the person was all ready out played once and they'll probably end up in the same hole they were in before. More then likely what is going to happen is the fed enemy is going to net a double kill(triple if it's Bot), when the jungler could be focusing on getting the other lanes fed, if they do gank.

If someone is failing in lane the jungler should buy them wards and cover for them when needed, but trying to gank the lane is only hurting the team more. The person in lane needs to play more defensive and just hold out till lanning phase ends and help is more available.

That's not to say if there is a lucky kill where they got away a lucky first blood the jungler should just abandon the lane, but if someone is fed like 5-1 with high cs in a solo lane there is nothing the jungler can do until he is fed which he isn't going to get off that lane since junglers generally are on par with duel lanes for lvl and won't have the items to survive the gank. Even if the jungler survives with low health now they're open to counter jungling.

The jungler shouldn't be rude about it though. Making a fake gank so they blow a summonses spell can be extremely helpful at times and encouraging the person just to hold out, help is coming is a good way to go.

Gankattk 12-22-2011 06:06 AM

A good jungler needs to provide helpful but swift aid, and this isnt always possible. Part of your job as a laner is to help the jungler set up ganks or ward near your lane. If the jungler cannot get in and get out you might blame him for that as well, understand? Junglers need to be fleeting in the lanes, because if they stick around too long XP is poorly distributed, or worse, he gets killed because a gank went poorly (because you had no lane control) and puts you're lane opponents even farther ahead. Its all about opportunity, dont blame the Jungler if you surrender all lane control.

EDGE0576 12-22-2011 07:55 AM

Try jungling a few times in practice or in normal qeueing with friends or watch a few high ELO jungling streams. This is just so you understand the thoughts of a jungler. A GOOD jungler will try and show lane presence when he is around but overextending your lane does not help. A jungle path is slow exp. and slow money and if the jungler is sitting at a helpless lane, no one is being helped. One way to entice your jungler to help is to buy wards yourself in lane. This is extremely helpful to both the jungler and your safety in lane. To be a worthwhile jungler, he needs to constantly be at a different minion camp killing neutral minions. This is the only way they can afford the jungling items they need and the personal wards he wants. While lanes can get exp by hanging back and playing turret hug defense, a jungler must consistently be on the offense to level up. This post isn't doubting you've had bad junglers, but it's trying to help you be a better laner. If a lane is doing poorly I.E. feeding or already fed, this just allows the very appropriate assumption that if the jungler ganks prematurely, that lane will either not assist properly or not leave when needed feeding yet another kill,( which in teamfights{and definitely fed lane fights} snowball). Thus earning a triple kill for the opposing lane. This opens a perfect opportunity for them to take a tower. And once a tower is taken with 3 dead, (playing lol you should know) laning phase is over. With them fed and you under leveled. The best hope if your lane is doing bad is to ask for jungle assist and play towerhugg defense until they feel comfortable. Remember that a gank under opposing turret is always going to be a bad idea for the jungler. Allow them to push while you poke back.

Qrzv 12-22-2011 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EraserxRain (Hozzászólás 18800792)
Junglers don't gank fed lanes because at best you're going to average out the lane,which isn't going to help because the person was all ready out played once and they'll probably end up in the same hole they were in before. More then likely what is going to happen is the fed enemy is going to net a double kill(triple if it's Bot), when the jungler could be focusing on getting the other lanes fed, if they do gank.

If someone is failing in lane the jungler should buy them wards and cover for them when needed, but trying to gank the lane is only hurting the team more. The person in lane needs to play more defensive and just hold out till lanning phase ends and help is more available.

That's not to say if there is a lucky kill where they got away a lucky first blood the jungler should just abandon the lane, but if someone is fed like 5-1 with high cs in a solo lane there is nothing the jungler can do until he is fed which he isn't going to get off that lane since junglers generally are on par with duel lanes for lvl and won't have the items to survive the gank. Even if the jungler survives with low health now they're open to counter jungling.

The jungler shouldn't be rude about it though. Making a fake gank so they blow a summonses spell can be extremely helpful at times and encouraging the person just to hold out, help is coming is a good way to go.

Please note that comment about the not-ganking is quite situational. For instance, if you fed a LeB, a shaco could still gank, since he's quite burst, assuming you have more burst in the lane. But yeah, generally a jungler should cover fed lanes not gank.

-Shir0

Tandy69edu 12-22-2011 08:15 AM

from what u have posted i can see why the jungle WW didnt gank.
In current meta, jungle WW is weak as he cant gank effectively until lvl 6 with his ulti, or he can pull of a lucky gank once in a while with red buff, it also doesnt help a jungle WW that the lane he is trying to gank was already kinda fed. If your vsing a dominant lane i.e jax and renekt, just dont ever push out past your side of the river, try your hardest to only last hit and keep the creep wave at your turret to remain safe and hold out until mid-game when other lanes can come help too.

Although falling behind through sloppy play like overextending cant be blamed on the jungler, especially if he is an underpowered one i.e Warwick, who cant really do much until lvl6 anyway.

Deathmare 12-22-2011 08:23 AM

Most junglers don't gank lanes that need it because they are terrible at jungling. Now that Riot's made jungling "newbie-friendly" (as I think they advertised it), newbies are jungling. If they're newbies, they don't understand the game. Which means they don't understand their role as a jungler. Essentially that puts the entire team at a disadvantage because 2/3 of the lanes can and will fail if they fall behind.

It's unfortunate, but it's what happens when and aspect of any team-based game gets more newbie friendly :\

anu mara 12-22-2011 12:25 PM

Simple in normals if a lane gets outplayed they will probably stay outplayed. in normals you will have random skill factors of a wider range of skill, duo-s versus singles, and strategy disparity(cait+taric, versus two meelee at the most extreme end).

Therefore when a jungler that frequently plays jungle sees this they know that if a lane gets outplayed they will stay outplayed more than half the time. Also due to game mechanics if they catch your lane up, they just increase the feeder lane gold/kill resulting in a larger feed. Further due to how the feeder effect works the jungler is at more risk, and posses a larger risk of feeding a kill from himself(a kill worth far more gold than just letting the feeder die a couple times).

Therefore in normal queue, the strategy that under 'normal' conditions that is most optimal is to try to put 2-3 players on your team a little bit ahead and 2-3 players on the enemy team a little bit behind.

______________

Obviously this will only work for normals, and even then it's not a "good" work in any way. However in organized team you actually have 5 minds to help the failing lane figure out how to come back, it is probably one of the worst strategies.

edit: Obviously if a lane falls a little behind, and plays smart it's better to help even in normal. But if you see something like 5-3 kills, or 2-3 in a lane. It's a case of WTF and stupid aggressive play. Seriously you should know in like 5 mins and before your death if you're going to be outplayed or not, not after a total kill and tower damage.

Deathnor 12-22-2011 01:34 PM

the situation u llisted the jungle made the right call. thier is no way hes gonna get a lane like that caught up and WW is almost 100% not getting a gank pre 6.

so it comes down to does he put himself behind as well? the answer is no he should try and help another lane get farmed out so that when laning phase ends your team has some fed players as well.

this reminds me of a game a few days ago where every lane was pushed and pushed hard. i made a bad call as the jungle attempting to push back all the lanes with little chance to land a kill. so rather then come out of the laning phase with gear i was so under lvled due to bad calls and mismatches in lanes that i became the dead weight on the team.


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