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-   -   [Guide] Manliness and Misconceptions - A Guide to Tryn (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=116863)

Bitterz 05-19-2010 12:30 AM

UPDATED: [Guide] Manliness and Misconceptions - A Guide to Tryn
 
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I am a mid-elo level 30 and I main Tryn. Yes. Tryn. My goal in writing this is to dispel a lot of the misconceptions that surround the manliest barbarian this side of Damacia. I'm not going to spend too much time harping on basics. If you take your Tryn seriously, you should already know enough about the game to get by.What I do want to focus on is all the misinformation out there about Tryn, and the best way to build the barb.

Misconceptions to Dispel

1.) Tryndamere sucks in the lane.
No. Tryn is a melee carry, and a **** strong one. As a carry, he's not going to be dominating the lane like some other champs might, but he's not going to roll over and die like so many people might imply. The basis of this misconception lies in how people try to lane with Tryn. Its important that players understand that Tryn doesn't have to be in the thick of things, last hitting every mob he can, from level one, onward. There is nothing wrong with sitting back at max range and soaking experience while your lane partner farms a bit. If your lane partner is getting pressured, you can still help. Just play conservatively. Its okay to tower hump early in the game. You'll start snowballing like a champ very soon.

2.) It takes 35+ minutes for Tryn to be worth a ****.
No. Tryn can be effective before level six. At six, he should start tower diving for kills. At eight, he should pick up the lizard buff to increase his effectiveness. By eleven, God-mode should be kicking in. We'll get into this in a little bit more depth later, but what people fail to realize is that Tryn possesses a built in damage engine. With just one point in Bloodlust, Tryn is able to gain 24 attack damage. This can be done as early as level one (though I recommend waiting until level two), and combined with his nasty crit-rate, makes Tryn a very legitimate damage threat very early in the game. Suffice it to say that Tryn can be critting enemy champs for over 200 damage as early in the game as level two. That's well over 1/3 of most champs HP.

3.) Tryn should be built for attack speed+crit.
No. You need one attack speed item, and one crit item. After that, stack damage. Attacking super fast is cool, but attacking kinda fast, and three-shotting everything you encounter is much, much cooler. As for crit... Between your passive, your runes, and your Infinity Edge, you'll have all the crit you need by the 20 minute mark.

4.) Tryn should buy Avarice Blades out the wazoo because "lolcrits".
No. Avarice Blades suck. This is dumb. Don't do it. Let's look at what you're getting for 750 of your hard earned gold: 12% crit, and 5 gold every 10 seconds, or 30 gold every minute. Most of the Tryn guides out there suggest picking up 2-3 Avarice Blades, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. With three of them, you're making 90g/minute, or 1800g every 20 minutes. Sweet... I guess. Except you just paid 2250g to get 1800g back 20 minutes later, with a little bit of crit as a bonus. Let's face the facts: That's a crappy investment. One Avarice Blade might be ok, since it turns into Ghostblade later... Anything more than that is wasted gold.

5.) Tryn is not viable.
From my perspective, this gets a resounding no. At my elo, I've had some great success with Tryn. Will that change with time? Who knows. Maybe yes, maybe no. For now, though, he's the most viable champ in my stable.


Building Tryn


http://www.leaguecraft.com/builder/T...6f51d5dd4931bc

1.) Marks/Glyphs/Seals
I've tried this a few different ways. I get the most success, however, out of pure crit-chance marks, seals, and glyphs, and armor pen quints. There's a great post on why armor pen trumps +crit damage here: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=70173

2.) Masteries
Let's face the facts: Tryn is all about blowing stuff up. His survivability comes from his mobility, his self healing, and his ultimate. Sometimes Tryn can feel very squishy, but at the end of the day, he has a lot more staying power than people give him credit for. For this reason, stay out of the defensive tree. Utility also serves little purpose for Tryn, as he uses no mana, and is largely unreliant on summoner spells. That leaves us with offense. I go 21/0/9, making sure to max out Sunder (becomes armor pen is king) and putting one point into Utility Mastery because the lizard buff is very powerful on Tryn.

3.) Summoner Spells
There are only two choices here. Cleanse and Ignite. Cleanse ensures that you punish the other team every time you pop your ultimate, and Ignite shuts down heals, and finishes off runners. For Tryn, there is no other summoner spell worth considering. Period.

4.) Skills
Always put one point in Spinning Slash first. From there its a simple priority list: R>Q>W>E. Rank one spinning slash gives Tryn absurd amounts of mobility. Its on a short cooldown, it has no mana cost, and it allows you to spin through terrain. Exploit this. Use it to excape, use it to initiate, use it to chase. It's just. that. good.

5.) Equipment

Alright, this is what everyone loves to talk about. Tryn needs three items to enter God-mode. At level 1, I like to get boots and 3 healing pots. People's strongest argument against boots first is that it gives you no staying power in the lane. This is true for every champion in the game, except Tryn. The three healing pots are more than enough to carry Tryn to level 2-4, at which point his Bloodlust will be providing him with enough self heals to stay in the lane indefinitely. From here, your build should unfold like this:

1st: Last Whisper. Armor penetration is king for physical DPS.

2nd: Boots: Mercury Treads are great. Boots of Swiftness are great. Ninja Tabi are great. I acknowledge this. I buy Berzerker Greaves. I'm of the opinion that Greaves + Last Whisper gives Tryn all the attack speed he needs to get through the mid-late game. If you want to go another route, that's totally cool, but be sure you make up for it by grabbing some attack speed somewhere else.

3rd: Infinity Edge: This is obvious. How you build it depends solely on how much cash you have when you're shopping. Either way, buy either the cloak, or the BF sword first. Don't get the Pickaxe.

4th: Elixirs. These things are OP. I often mix them in as I'm building my Infinity Edge with the 300-600g extra I have from time to time. Fortitude > Agility, in my opinion, but pack both whenever you can.

Once you've got these three items, you're set. You don't need anything else. Seriously. You're done. Walk away. Anyone that can manage to stay alive through the early game can easily have these three pieces done before 25 minutes. Once you have them in place, you can kill anything on the map. Guaranteed. Go win. Seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leaguecraft Builder Data - 5 Second Estimate
Attacks 6.745
Total Criticals 3.192
Total Bonus Critical Damage 715.008
Total DPS 530.293
Total Damage inclusive 2651.467

Tryn's ultimate lasts for six seconds. Per Leaguecraft's calculator, he's completely capable of 3k+ damage in that time span, using only these three items.

...

If, for whatever reason the game doesn't end swiftly after the completion of Infinity Edge, you have a few choices. Which ones you take should be dependent on how the game's going, and what kind of team you're up against.

Against heavy nuking teams:

Guardian Angel is a great way to pick up some extra staying power. If you grab this piece, try waiting until after you rez to use your cleanse/ your ultimate. Its a great way to make the enemy team burn lots of CC on a single target.


Against Fat Tanks or Heals:

1st: I like to take Ghostblade here for the extra armor penetration, and the powerful active.

2nd: Madred's Bloodrazor is a fantastic situational item for extra fatty opponents

3rd: Executioner's Calling can be handy if you feel like Ignite alone isn't doing a good enough job of stopping heals.

Against Sivirs/Jaxes/Dodgey, annoying champs

Sword of the Divine: For shutting down dudge, duh.

Against Melee/Physical DPS Heavy Teams

Ninja Tabi + Phantom Dancers give you some extra survivability, and some movement speed, to boot.

For soloing the Baron

Sometimes your team is pushing well, but can't finish, yet doesn't want to let off the pressure. In this case, picking up 2x Malady makes soloing the Baron an easy job for Tryn.

In general, any late game scenario that doesn't fit into the above criteria will come to the quickest conclusion if you just stack damage; (IE: Bloodthirsters)


A Section on Farming

Without question, the most common Tryn criticism I hear is that he's too bad in the early game, and he requires too much farming to be good in the late game. I've already talked a bit about how Tryn's early game is better than people realize, so I want to take a second to talk about farming. There are four important aspects to farming.

1st: The Lane Phase

During this time, most of the gold you have coming in is going to be from the clock. If you get a favorable matchup in the lane (I'll add a section on this later) you may enjoy some easier farm time here. In most circumstances, and certainty against better teams, this time is going to be payday for your lane partner. Let them handle most the last-hitting and pushing, and only pick off creeps when you know you're safe, or free to pressure the enemy team.

2nd: The Jungle Phase

This is vastly important. The jungle phase starts between levels 6 and 8 depending on how things are going in the lane. If you're able to freely pressure and push, then continue doing so. If you're being forced to tower hump endlessly, GTFO as soon as you can, and head to the jungle. This gives your lane partner extra experience, and lets you farm freely. Jungle camps give lots of gold, so after level 6, even if you're able to push at will, try to find time to run through the jungle occasionally to cushion your pockets. A couple special notes on the jungle: Don't hit the lizard before level 7. Level 8 is ideal. Kill the dragon at 9-10 with the lizard buff, or with your lane partner.

3rd: The Ganking Phase

This phase will start at different times virtually every single game. A lot of the timing for this phase is up to whoever your team has in the middle. Ganks don't always require three players, but they're a helluva lot easier when three are present. If ganking hasn't begun by the time you hit level 6, start it yourself by diving on somebody. There are two ways to farm during the ganking phase. First: Kill enemy champions. Duh. This is the fastest way to bring home the bacon, but its not always the safest, or easiest. The second way to farm during this phase is by filling empty lanes when people leave to gank. Tryn has no problem farming safely in mid, especially after level 6. Don't be shy about running up there solo to farm creeps, or even go for a kill. This is especially nice because solo lane experience is an awesome way to get ahead in levels. It can be dangerous too, though, as a lone player is a prime candidate for ganks from the enemy side.

4th: The Team-Fight Phase.

If you haven't already made bank, this is when you're really gonna cash in. Participating in team-fights with Tryn is different than it is with other champs because of his spinning slash ability. 90% of engagements happen around terrain that Tryn can easily pass through. For this reason, it is of great benefit, and priority that the Tryn player uses this to his advantage. As such a huge damage threat, Tryn will be focused frequently. This is why you want to come spinning into fights from the fog of war after the fight has been initiated. It means less CC you have to deal with, and more time before you're forced to pop your ultimate. Be sure to focus squishy targets with Tryn. His massive single target damage output allows him to drop Ashes, Twisted Fates, Twitches, and other popular DPS classes in as little as 2-3 shots. Also, always use mocking shout. The damage reduction, especially at later stages of the game, is substantial.


Some Notes on Playing Tryn


1.) Never leave the lane. Tryn has a ton of self healing. Even if you get beat down to 50 HP, run into the jungle, build 8 stacks, and heal yourself up. I often find myself staying in the lane from level one until as late as level nine. By this time you should have more than enough gold to pick up boots and Last Whisper in one trip.

2.) Lane conservatively, Kill aggressively. Tryn is all about timing, positioning, and explosiveness. Don't let yourself die foolishly when your ultimate is on cooldown, but don't be afraid to dive on players and relentlessly pursue kills when its up.

3.) Your life is a resource. Use it. Don't be afraid to run around at half health. In fact, running around with chunks of your life missing is a **** smart idea in the case of Tryndamere. Here's why: 1st, you hit harder when you're hurt. 2nd: Enemies will target you first when your low. 3rd: Between your ultimate, cleanse, your self healing, and spinning slash, you have tons of escape options that other champions don't get. Be the bait, and then punish the enemy for taking it, before spinning away to safety.


*** After Posting this guide, lots of important questions have come up. Since clicking through the thread to find them all is lame, I'm going to post them here. ***

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanderingspinger
So would you say, out of all the champs Tyr is very heavily relied upon the Rune pages? Like if you did not HAVE the crit chance would you be able to play him as you do?

Yes. The reason I'm able to build Tryn for damage and not crit is because my runes do that job for me. If you try to lane with 5% crit or less, then everything everyone says about Tryn sucking becomes true. You have to be able to build stacks, you have to be able to have some self healing... Without crit, you get neither.

tl;dr: If you don't have the runes, go find another Tryn guide. This one won't help you.


Quote:

Originally Posted by peyo (Hozzászólás 1346241)
have you considered getting an early Sword of the Occult? :P

There are a few reasons that I advise against getting Sword of the Occult.

1st: Tryn's already a fairly slow starter. He needs to pick up items that will immediately impact his game. Not pieces that have to snowball.

2nd: Sword of the Occult is a risk/reward item. Sure, occasionally it'll be great. But even in best case scenarios, I wouldn't expect to be running around with more than 10-12 stacks.

3rd: This is something I'll add to the guide later, but Sword of the Occult conflicts directly with the "Tryndamere Mindset". As Tryn, your job is to soak damage, take down 2-3 enemy champs, and either escape, or die. Death will come frequently, but that's okay so long as you make a worthwhile trade. 1-1, 2-1, 3-1... these are trades you'll make regularly when playing Tryn. Unfortunately for Sword of the Occult, this mindset, and subsequent play-style doesn't synergize well with the items mechanics.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Fruz (Hozzászólás 1346737)
jungling with trynd must not be too difficlt as long as he can heal himself with bloodlust, and get all the minion's kill with jungling isn't it ? So if you really need to farm to get your IE, jungling may be a good way to do it I think.

Trynd's great in the jungle, to a point. At 4 you can handle the the non-buff camps. I always go get the lizard buff at 8, though he's certainly killable earlier. Once you've got the lizard buff, you can solo the dragon. I usually wait until 9 before doing that, though.

But to address your question more directly: I spend a lot of time in the jungle. Any time I want to heal, I go to the jungle to build stacks. Any time a buff falls off, I go to the jungle to pick one up. Any time I'm just running up a lane, I'll pop into the jungle quickly to clean up any camps along the way.

The jungle is a tool. Use it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by peyo (Hozzászólás 1348952)
@the ignite thrown 1 second or two after your ulti, you have to know when to heal up... I always wait for my ulti to be like 0,01s to expire when I heal up... and usualy that 200HP is enough to survive

This is important. I'm touching on it again so that people might place special emphasis on one very crucial aspect of Tryn: timing.

The truth is, playing Tryn isn't that hard. He's a right click monster. But if you're going to be effective, you have to learn how to time his every move. When to initiate, when to mocking shout, when to pop your ultimate, when to bail out, and when to heal up. If you can get a feel for these little tricks, you will start nailing 20 kill games left and right, and you will spend significantly less time with your face flat on the floor.


Quote:

Originally Posted by peyo (Hozzászólás 1374126)
I'd add 1 more thing. Learning to use Mocking Shout. It's GREAT skill to save your friends. Whenever you see your ally/allies being chased by enemies and you know that you can't kill them, help your friends with escaping. You can either hide in brushes nearby, behind some wall or just get closer. The description on it is a bit wrong. It slows enemies that are not face to face with you. They'll get slowed when they are sideways to you as well. And you shouldn't have problems escaping yourself, as Trynd is really hard to chase.

QFT



One last thing...

Major thanks to everyone for posting here with questions and insights into Tryn and his play-style. The barb is a beast, and its up to you guys to keep it that way. =)

Redenbacher 05-19-2010 06:17 AM

I'm digging this guide here, thanks for the recommendation to it. At some point, I'll have to give this a try.

How important do you feel your rune page is with this build? My current page has flat HP quints, Armor pen marks, HP seals (might switch to dodge), and CDR glyphs. I know landing those criticals is paramount to Trynd, but I play a host of characters and he's the only one that would use a full page of crit. It seems it would be silly to invest in all those crit runes just for one character when I play about 4-5 of them.

Bitterz 05-19-2010 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redenbacher (Hozzászólás 1337834)
I'm digging this guide here, thanks for the recommendation to it. At some point, I'll have to give this a try.

How important do you feel your rune page is with this build? My current page has flat HP quints, Armor pen marks, HP seals (might switch to dodge), and CDR glyphs. I know landing those criticals is paramount to Trynd, but I play a host of characters and he's the only one that would use a full page of crit. It seems it would be silly to invest in all those crit runes just for one character when I play about 4-5 of them.

Without the runes you'd really need to reconsider how you do your equipment. My runepage gives me 15% crit (so I start with an even 20) and 12 armor pen.

Without that, you're looking at a paltry 5% crit from the start, meaning those Avarice Blades that I ranted about might start becoming pretty appealing.

That said, you can certainly get away with non-crit seals and glyphs, just make sure you get the roughly 10% crit from marks.

As far as crit runes go, though, when I'm not playing Tryn I'm usually rock'n Twisted Fate, who also benefits greatly from +crit %. If you play him too, then that investment might actually be worth making.

Morinav 05-19-2010 06:32 AM

Nice guide. I play Trynd sometimes and this guide seems pretty solid (Tryn is perhaps, possibly, MAYBE, the only character berserker's greaves aren't a horrible idea on)

@Redenbacher. I find flat HP quints to be massively useful on Trynd. I also run 8/21/1 masteries with him and end up having a very healthy level 1 barbarian. It helps a lot to soak up damage until you can get level 2 or so in bloodlust and start pumping out the heals. It does weaken your late game some, but it helps prop up the weaker early game. Perhaps my defensive build could be seen as "Trynd with Trainin Wheels" as it makes him a good bit easier to play levels 1-5.

I would definitely recommend getting crit chance marks at the very least, and probably seals as well. CDR isn't that important for Trynd, to be honest. You're not spamming your skills much. Then again, crit chance on glyphs is really lame. If you get marks and seals, you'll end up with 12.15% crit chance out of the gate. (3.78 from seals, 8.37 from marks). Combined with masteries, you're probably looking at around 15% crit chance base. That's pretty decent and will let you crit reliably if your HP is riding a bit low. Glyphs end up giving a measely 2.52% crit chance. Blegh.

Bitterz 05-19-2010 07:07 AM

Edits: added masteries and fixed a few typos.

Flashfires 05-19-2010 07:18 AM

From what I understand Last Whisper's % reduction in armor doesn't stack well with flat ArPen, that doesn't make much difference for you?

Bitterz 05-19-2010 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashfires (Hozzászólás 1338246)
From what I understand Last Whisper's % reduction in armor doesn't stack well with flat ArPen, that doesn't make much difference for you?

Its very possible that I'm mistaken. I really need to dig up the Armor Pen thread that I'm basing my runes/gear on.

My understanding is that it works this way:

1.) Armor Reduction (ie: Black Cleaver)
2.) Armor % Penetration(ie: Last Whisper)
3.) Flat Armor Pen (ie: Runes/Masteries/Ghostblade, etc.)

So if a target has 50 armor, Last Whisper would ignore 20 of it. Then flat armor pen would be subtracted from the remaining 30.

If this is incorrect, please someone set me straight so I can adjust the guide accordingly.

JackAubrey 05-19-2010 08:05 AM

Nice guide. I grab a Doran's Shield if I'm expecting excessive harassment, personally. Ghostblade is pretty nice, would grabbing the Avarice blade early be smarter for the extra gold, or is it not worth the opportunity cost vs a fast LW?

peyo 05-19-2010 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bitterz (Hozzászólás 1336474)
4.) Tryn should buy Avarice Blades out the wazoo because "lolcrits".
- No. Avarice Blades suck. This is dumb. Don't do it. Let's look at what you're getting for 750 of your hard earned gold: 12% crit, and 5 gold every 10 seconds, or 30 gold every minute. Most of the Tryn guides out there suggest picking up 2-3 Avarice Blades, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. With three of them, you're making 90g/minute, or 1800g every 20 minutes. Sweet... I guess. Except you just paid 2250g to get 1800g back 20 minutes later, with a little bit of crit as a bonus. Let's face the facts: That's a crappy investment. One Avarice Blade might be ok, since it turns into Ghostblade later... Anything more than that is wasted gold.

if you sell them after these 20min, you'll get more than 2250 :D

I always get 1 or 2 early, 1 of them goes for a Ghostblade and I sell the other one when I need to. I am running Crit Chance Marks + 1 Quint (a bit above 10%), Dodge Seals, CDR Glyphs (CDR is not anything supercool at trynd, but is there anything better? ^^). The other 2 Quints are ArPen. Running 21/9/0 for Nimbleness (<3 dodging Gold Cards and Parrleys)

Your ArPen calculations are ok. Reduction > % Penetration > Flat Penetration, but it'll be changed soon :D

Bitterz 05-19-2010 08:37 AM

I loathe early avarice blades. It gives you flat crit. The gold is completely non-consequential. At 750g, an Avarice Blade won't pay for itself until 25 minutes later. Most games should be over before the 30 minute mark.

The only time I ever pick up Avarice Blades is when I'm building my Ghostblade... That means After LW, IE, and boots.

Don't get me wrong... I've tried early avarice blades... I just don't feel like they give you the same kind of return that you get out of things that are itemized purely for DPS.


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