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-   -   2k ELO tryn: @Morello & @RIOT: why NERF tryn? (http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1017569)

MG z3rg3m3ow 07-25-2011 08:51 PM

2k ELO tryn: @Morello & @RIOT: why NERF tryn?
 
Newest UPDATE: Tryn is now in a good spot! Our work here is done! <3



*****MORELLO POSTED ON THIS THREAD*****http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...6#post12694426

I'm z3rg3m3n and I main tryndamere at 2k ELO. These patch notes are an outrage.

So let me get this straight, RIOT. You said you wanted to buff tryn at high ELO and not have his laning phase be binary. So you do this by...

1) Nerfing his heal. His heal starts out at 30 as usual, but now only scales up to 300 instead of 400.

2) Increasing his bloodlust and spinning slash cooldowns by 4 seconds each.

3) Nerfing his passive - he now gets UP TO 35% crit based on RAGE instead of 50% crit based on HEALTH.

4) Nerfing his bloodlust further by swapping the attack damage buff to HEALTH instead of RAGE. This means that now tryn is even MORE useless at high health since he can't even generate the extra damage he normally could from stacking bloodlust stacks. Now he has to depend on being vulnerable and low health for his damage output.

5) Nerfed spinning slash damage early game by changing it to physical damage from magic damage AND Nerfing its base damage except from level 1 spin. AND it now scales from BONUS AD instead of TOTAL AD. (requires around 250 AD from items to match old spin)

6) Removing Crit damage from his stats.

You're correct RIOT, you've made tryn's earlygame non-binary. Now he's sure to lose his lane every game at high ELO.

I concede that you threw in NEGLIGIBLE buffs such as removing health cost from spin and mocking shout and increasing spinning slash's scaling to 1 from .5 (although you now need about 250 AD in items to match old spin...) But this in no way can ever make up for the massive nerfs I've detailed. You have effectively made tryn non-viable at high ELO. Please change him back or buff him. This is ridiculous.

Sincerely,

A disgruntled 2k ELO Tryn.

***UPDATE***: As of now, all recognizable high ELO tryns (2k+) have said this is an across-the board nerf. This includes: h4ckerv2, B51, Bellaflica, Jenika, funkybutlovr (AKA **** Cheney), and myself. (Doublelift also says he agrees on stream!). Council Member Ben also agrees it's an across-the-board nerf (page 50)

EDIT: I solo lane top on tryndamere. Guinsoo already stated on this post that the changes are supposed to make him even more viable as a solo laner top. I don't want to hear about this jungle tryndamere stuff. This concerns solo lane top.

UPDATE: I just played tryn after the patch. He is CONSIDERABLY WEAKER as solo lane top at high ELO. Tryn now does way less damage and he's way more vulnerable (This has to do a lot with the passive change). Gonna try jungling next game.

UPDATE: Just played jungle tryn. Yeah, he's more consistent now. Cooldown nerfs, passive / rage nerfs, and crit damage nerfs are too much though. I don't think Tryn can be viable at high ELO anymore the way he is now. I hope RIOT will understand this and take advice from their high ELO player base. Tryn's earlygame got nerfed way too hard with the bloodlust / rage changes. We need to revert tryn to the way he was or massively buff him in the rage system. This is unacceptable.

Edit: I've been talking to a few tryn players including B51 who also mains tryn at 2k ELO. We not only acknowledge these are huge nerfs, but another thing is that RIOT just made tryn into a weak, generic tanky dps. There is no reason to choose tryn over lee sin or jarvan if you're gonna go warmog / atmas build (I give specific reasoning later on in this post). But now, as he is, It seems it's one of the only quasi-viable paths. RIOT is sucking away all the originality this game ever had and just putting heroes into cookie-cutter molds. This is ridiculous. Another tanky dps? All of the melee carries are disappearing.

**UPDATE** Someone wanted me to compare how viable tanky tryn is vs other tanky dps. So let's compare what they bring to the table. Wall of text INC:

1) Tryn: a long cooldown aoe dmg debuff / POSSIBLE slow (which he could use in a non tanky build 1-2 times per battle) Which he'll use about 2 times per battle because of how long teamfights last. Not a buff vs old Tryn. A healing sustain which got nerfed but is also his way of obtaining crit and doing decent damage. A passive that's counterproductive with a tanky tryn (his crits won't hit for much unless he's AD build or he's low on health, making tanky tryn not as useful). An ult that is, again, counterproductive to tanky tryn. Lower damage spin (needs about 250 AD from items to equal old spin) Also, he lost mobility and sustain with longer cooldowns on Q and E. That's all his utility in a teamfight. Bad Lane control compared to other tanky dps. Less sustain (for creeping and harassing at high ELO** this is important) and less damage. Not too great. Now let's compare other tanky dps.

2) Jarvan: Jarvan has a ranged harass (strike), an AOE CC (flag + leap), a team buff (flag), an aoe slow + sustain (shield) and a high power burst ultimate that is extremely useful for positioning and isolating heroes (ult). A passive that deals % life to any hero he attacks every few seconds. Big lane control both solo and duo lane.

3) Lee sin: Decent ranged harass (even higher at high ELO since it's common for Q->Q->W to ally / creep). An aoe slow and aoe attack speed slow. High, high mobility. Big base damage on abilities, so he will still do good damage regardless of tanky build. High utility through ult (damage, possibly hitting more than one opponent. Repositioning.) Shield for self and ally, as well as built-in tankiness and lifesteal (W). Big Lane Control.

4) Udyr: Stun that can hit any enemy every few sec (can be used on different champs over and over) + high movespeed boost to compensate for lack of leap move. High tankiness. built-in shield and lifesteal for sustain. High Base values on Q so that he still does good dmg regardless of build. Built-in attack speed on Q. High lane control (Banned at high elo every game because of his Solo Top lane control).

Seems tryn is a bit lackluster at high ELO.

UPDATE: To give you all more information about lane tryn at high ELO, here are some issues:

1) If you duo lane bot, enemy bot lane will zone you (they will be support + ranged carry or double burst such as blitz / poppy) and they will win the lane. Tryndamere needs his solo lane, solo exp, and solo cs.

2) If you solo lane at high ELO, your lane opponent will be a tanky harass such as jarvan, udyr, lee sin, etc. This means that your lower crits do even lower damage. Tryn needed high crit damage to survive in lane. He also needed crit to be based on % life because he got harassed and he needed to regenerate rage / bloodlust much much faster so he didn't get pushed out of lane when he was pushed to his tower after being harassed.

3) At high ELO, something like a bloodthirster isn't useful because you won't be engaging in small teamfights that have no CC. You will be instantly bursted in any big teamfight and will be CCd regardless of the size of the teamfight. Your lifesteal has effectively been nullified. You needed your high burst damage to compete. We no longer have that.


***UPDATE***: As of now, all recognizable high ELO tryns (2k+) have said this is an across-the board nerf. This includes: h4ckerv2, B51, Bellaflica, Jenika, funkybutlovr (AKA **** Cheney), and myself. (Doublelift also says he agrees on stream!) Council Member Ben also agrees it's an across-the-board nerf (page 50)


**UPDATE** *IMO* they should just revert him. Throw in a visible way of showing the enemy about the bloodlust stacks if you want, but the ability nerfs are unacceptable. New tryn is unoriginal, hard to balance, and as we can see from this post Most of the community does not appreciate the changes. Thanks for the continued support, everyone! 500 upvotes so far! Keep em coming! :)

EDIT: Completely agree with this post http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1021971 Go read it.

EDIT: GO CHECK OUT THIS POST FOR GREAT JUSTICE: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1023277

EDIT: Yet another good thread about Tryndamere, this one from a tryn main since Beta! I completely agree with it. All of it. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1027845

EDIT: A good thread about how the passive rework and the new kit are counterproductive. Check it out. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1032341

EDIT: Another thread about how this is a nerf to Tryndamere's jungling and how RIOT has not yet reasonably explained to us how the changes were not simply outright nerfs: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1033271

EDIT: Another thread showing tryn's new kit is counterproductive: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1037128
Update: Wow over 800 upvoetes so far!!! Let's get this to over 1000! <3 Thanks again for the continued support!

UPDATE:
We've gone over 1000 upvotes!!! This is amazing, guys! :] Every vote counts!

Update: Wow!!! 1200 upvotes! I'm astonished o_o!

Update:
Redposts are on the following pages:
1 post by phreak on page 3.
1 post by Guinsoo on page 10
2 posts by Guinsoo on page 124
(Please try to read my responses to their posts, however, instead of just reading their posts. I responded to Phreak's on my original post with my updates. I respond directly to all of Guinsoo's within my thread.)

Update:
@Guinsoo: I replied on page 139 to your last reply! Thanks for your interaction with the community. We really do appreciate it. Looking forward to more replies in the future.

*****UPDATE*****:

Phreak has given us some answers on this thread: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=1033271

(His first comment is on page 14)

He says that at the very least, tryn's healing and spinning slash will be buffed next patch! Good news to hear! :)

I'd still rather have tryn be reverted, but I'm glad to hear that our efforts have paid off and we've made a difference in League of Legends! I hope to see my main be viable again soon enough so that I can continue to play ranked at 2k ELO.

I sincerely believe that for that to happen, cooldown buffs or some steroid buff is needed, but we'll see how this goes. Eyeburn makes a very good rebuttal in his thread for this, and I want to make a short but clear one:

The problem with tryn as an AD melee carry is that he is the single most autoattack-reliant hero in the game. He has no ranged harass and he only has his long-cooldown mocking shout for utility. He was already outshined by every other ranged carry and melee carry endgame before the nerfs, except for his ult and his damage. Now that his damage has fallen so dramatically, it will be even harder to place him on teams. You guys either need to grant him more utility (which I think is a step in the wrong direction, as it further places him into a cookie-cutter tanky dps that is not original) or give him some type of damage steroid.

I hope you take this into consideration.

Thanks Again to all the Community for making a Difference!

*POST-PATCH NOTES UPDATE*

I don't even know where to begin with these patch notes. Tryn gets a minor heal buff (35 extra at max level) assuming you're using the heal with 100 rage, as opposed to the non-buffed no-rage heal.

Tryn's spinning slash got increased by 10 damage, and the AD ratio is 1.2 on BONUS AD as opposed to Total AD, so tryn's spin damage will still be mediocre without a heavy AD build.

THESE are the buffs to compensate for 40% less crit damage, lack of passive synergy, and loss of AD steroid at high health?

Ren Singh 07-25-2011 08:53 PM

He was viable in high elo in the first place? It sucks that they would nerf tryn, off all characters, but I don't think he's really been that viable....really anywhere.

Bohinta 07-25-2011 08:54 PM

I'd probably try it before crying.

korean dino 07-25-2011 08:55 PM

yo wat u say is so true omg..........kayle doesnt look to good either cause she doesnt have her old passive that raises ap for ad and vise versa which mean now she will do less dmg then before and shes more of a healer support then a dps caster that goes melee

PriorityOne 07-25-2011 08:55 PM

Spinning Slash now takes 240 bonus AD to equal the old Spinning Slash.

Just great...

Mikedawg 07-25-2011 08:55 PM

You don't know it's a nerf until you try it, child.

NougetTime 07-25-2011 08:56 PM

This patch is horrible

john 07-25-2011 08:56 PM

trynd nerfs were the worst part of this patch. please explain, riot?

OPHeimerdingerOP 07-25-2011 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NougetTime (Hozzászólás 11986760)
This patch is horrible

Annie was nerfed, patch is no longer horrible

Sunraw 07-25-2011 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thneed (Hozzászólás 11986722)
You don't know it's a nerf until you try it, child.

Hey you almost have gold minion kills (: How long have you been playing? 2 weeks? 167 wins, almost 1/50th of his playtime? INCREDIBLE!


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