Thread / Thread Starter Developer Post Forum
Boom Boom Vi - Srs Bsns Skin Concept Riot NeuroCat
05-22-2013 09:02 PM
General Discussion

Riot NeuroCat

Associate Business Analyst

05-22-2013
1 of 3 Riot Posts

I want this skin. Riot Pls. +1


From the summoner's name above, who do you think they play? RiotRectifyer
05-22-2013 08:09 PM
Forum Games

RiotRectifyer

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

QA Analyst

05-22-2013
44 of 47 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmeagolDood View Post
Blitzcrank
Nope!

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/103678#ranked-stats


From the summoner's name above, who do you think they play? RiotRectifyer
05-22-2013 08:05 PM
Forum Games

RiotRectifyer

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

QA Analyst

05-22-2013
43 of 47 Riot Posts

Gragas


[Art] Unprepared Garen skin - Its "Sexy" Riot NeuroCat
05-18-2013 01:05 PM
Fan Art

Riot NeuroCat

Associate Business Analyst

05-18-2013
9 of 10 Riot Posts

Riot Please


Describe your FIRST Game of LoL in 4 Words Riot NeuroCat
05-17-2013 09:16 AM
General Discussion

Riot NeuroCat

Associate Business Analyst

05-17-2013
13 of 23 Riot Posts

Heimerdinger - Put Turrets EVERYWHERE


From the summoner's name above, who do you think they play? Riot NeuroCat
05-17-2013 12:26 AM
Forum Games

Riot NeuroCat

Associate Business Analyst

05-17-2013
42 of 47 Riot Posts

Twisted Fate!


Pick Order vs. Call Order Lyte
05-16-2013 02:03 PM
General Discussion

Lyte

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

05-16-2013
8 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SplendidSorrow View Post
So you came to share your thoughts and generate discussion...but you come out and state "We as Riot hereby endorse Pick Order". You told us the rule, that 'this is how it is from now on till we say otherwise'. You didn't invite discussion. You made a statement.

Tell me how this is not an official stance? You state in the ORIGINAL POST...that it is your official stance...
I should probably just fix my other post, but yes, we do believe Pick Order is the best answer of the current available options in Champion Select. More importantly, we believe communication and cooperation trumps every strategy in Champion Select.

We're providing our reasons for why we believe Pick Order is the best. The question is, do players agree?


Pick Order vs. Call Order Riot Socrates
05-16-2013 11:18 AM
General Discussion

Riot Socrates

Systems Designer

05-16-2013
7 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by eceto View Post
The problem is does it really work that way?
Say I want mid. I tell everyone that. Well so does someone else. Im first pick, so well, I dont need to communicate. I already said i wanted mid. They have no more reason to get it then I do. I have even less reason to communicate now, cause if im first, i get what I want. Not saying call order is better, its just as stupid, but honestly, both systems dont work, and promoting one will only hurt communication within teams. Staying impartial to both made it so nether side had a real say, and were forced to work together. seems to me that now, who ever is first doesnt have to bother to communicate. It would be the same really if you did call order. Supporting an idea that takes away from communication will...well...take away from communication.

Also another thing im wounder. If its pick order, what about the trade option. im first, so I can get what ever i want? But I can trade with anyone on my team...so why does me being first mean anything?

Seems to me like staying impartial to ether side was a better option. Personally I dislike both call and pick order. Both take away from the fact that you need to communicate. The games where my team communicates are usually the games where I have the most fun. Wouldn't supporting an idea that does not require communication only result in less communication?

(sorry for bad grammer)
Our stance isn't that the player who has first pick should ignore his team and auto lock. It's that players should try to collaborate to form a team. If for whatever reason players come to an impasse and disputes arise, we want players to have some generally agreed upon set of rules to resolve the dispute in a civil way.


Pick Order vs. Call Order Lyte
05-16-2013 10:56 AM
General Discussion

Lyte

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

05-16-2013
6 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhawke View Post
Love the work you're doing Lyte, but I'm worried you've opened up a pandora's box here. Now that Riot has an "official stance" (I realize you guys don't see it that way, but the masses will) I'm worried communication in champ select will eventually go down the drain.
Most of the player behavior team is currently working on potential solutions to Champion Select. Socrates and I were discussing our design philosophies on Champion Select in its current form and whether we felt Pick Order or Call Order was the better choice--we just felt like we should share our thoughts on the issue and generate some discussion to see what the community thought as well.

This isn't necessarily how Champion Select will always be, we're working hard on the future solutions everyday.

EDIT ::: We do believe Pick Order is the best answer of the current available options in Champion Select. More importantly, we believe communication and cooperation trumps every strategy in Champion Select.

We're providing our reasons for why we believe Pick Order is the best. The question is, do players agree?


Pick Order vs. Call Order Riot Socrates
05-16-2013 10:38 AM
General Discussion

Riot Socrates

Systems Designer

05-16-2013
5 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baneson View Post
Communication > Pick Order > Calling

Can't be said enough.
That's a pretty good TL DR version of our stance on this. Well said. =)


Pick Order vs. Call Order Lyte
05-16-2013 10:31 AM
General Discussion

Lyte

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Lead Social Systems Designer

Follow RiotLyte on Twitter

05-16-2013
4 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esepeonage View Post
you say pick order is fair? people are usually better at the roles they like to play. Like me I main top but i always get stuck support in ranked so I decide since Im a good guy Ill do what ever. I get left with adc by far my worst role and even then im ok at it as long as im not vayne. But apparently im not good enough to get top 3 picks so gg noob riot
The philosophy here isn't that pick order defines everything and is king. You should still communicate with your teammates and can see if they'd be willing let you play top--in many cases, players will be happy to still swap roles with you even if they have a higher pick order.


Pick Order vs. Call Order Riot Pwyff
05-16-2013 10:20 AM
General Discussion

Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

Follow Riot Pwyff on Twitter

05-16-2013
3 of 9 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballstein211 View Post
Please, please please, everyone pay attention to the parts i bolded. Riot is not saying "Pick order is king" they are saying it is a way to settle arguments. Please still communicate with your team and respect others.
Just wanted to re-quote this given its importance. Socrates mentions this several times in his post, but reiteration is always good!


Pick Order vs. Call Order Riot Socrates
05-16-2013 10:00 AM
General Discussion

Riot Socrates

Systems Designer

05-16-2013
2 of 9 Riot Posts

  • Q: How will Riot be able to enforce this?

A: The short answer is it won't be strictly enforced. We want to create an environment that encourages collaboration when creating team comps. Strict enforcement here could potentially obstruct that. However, in the event that somebody is breaking the Summoner's Code in champ select, players can use the existing reporting tools like the tribunal.


  • Q: I'm last pick and I have no idea how to play the role left to me – so I get reported either way. What do I do?

A: It's best to go into ranked with at least a basic grasp of how to play every role. Having said that, behavioral and game skill reporting is handled differently. Receiving an ‘unskilled player' report can't result in a ban.


  • Q: I ALWAYS end up last pick so this will have a significantly negative impact on me – how does pick order even get decided?

A: On average players should be seated in each pick order roughly the same number of times over a large enough set of games.


  • Q: So if I play with a friend who's significantly higher ranked than me, I will never have a choice in my role?

A: In this specific case, you could ask your friend to make a pick for you and then trade. More generally it's pretty rare to find a team who all insist on playing specific positions. It's worth communicating your strongest and weakest positions to your team since usually a compromise can be found.


Pick Order vs. Call Order Riot Socrates
05-16-2013 10:00 AM
General Discussion

Riot Socrates

Systems Designer

05-16-2013
1 of 9 Riot Posts

Summoners,

As you all know, we value communication and collaboration above all when it comes to choosing roles in ranked games. According to the Player Behavior team's studies, teams that cooperate together have a greater chance to win. Naturally, cooperation and communication is something we want to encourage within all games of League of Legends.

That said, we do know that there have been some problems with coming to an agreement at champion select, and many players have defaulted to one of two systems: Pick Order – where players higher on the pick list have first choice of their role – and Call Order – where players believe whoever “calls” a role first gets the right to it. For a while, we've been asked what our own official stance is on Pick Order versus Call Order and, after much consideration, we've ultimately decided to endorse Pick Order over Call Order as an underlying system. There are many reasons why Pick Order works better to encourage communication and cooperation in teams:

  • Players with faster load times shouldn't have an unfair advantage in Call Order
  • Pick Order occurs naturally in the current design, so it's more intuitive
  • Over time, players get an equal number of opportunities to be each pick slot
  • Players shouldn't have to race to type a position at the start of each match

At this point we would like to stress, once again, that Pick Order should not be the first thing players turn to in determining who plays what role in ranked games. Pick Order is meant to be a last resort when settling discussions - this is why we are endorsing it and not mandating it. Communication and collaboration are still the most important things when it comes to playing ranked games, and we hope players will continue to uphold the Summoner's Code in all of their matches. If you refuse to communicate with your team and rely only on Pick Order to determine your role selection, you are still being a toxic player and this will reflect negatively upon you. By officially endorsing Pick Order, however, we are hoping this will give more structure to players and may help settle some disputes. And, of course, this isn't the only thing we're doing to address champion select as a process. For more information on our long-term plans, turn to this discussion with Lyte, status kwoh, and davin. We've also included a mini-FAQ for players who have further questions on our endorsement of this philosophy.


Happy hunting,

Socrates


Judge the most suitable champion for the person posting above you Nidivre
05-13-2013 01:51 PM
General Discussion

Nidivre

Production Coordinator

05-13-2013
12 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by sluglo View Post
Zyra/Maokai
Kog'maw.


Judge the most suitable champion for the person posting above you RiotOpti
05-13-2013 10:39 AM
General Discussion

RiotOpti

Community Coordinator

Follow Opti on Twitter

05-13-2013
11 of 12 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aran888888 View Post
Morde...idk who else D:
Full Metal Jayce - got the exoskeleton/power-suit thing going


The true evolution Solcrushed
05-11-2013 08:25 AM
General Discussion

Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

05-11-2013
8 of 17 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostStalker86 View Post
Holy ****. That's crazy. What color would his staff be? haha!

Would you end up nerfing the stats on the merged item? If you do, I ask that you leave Death Augment affecting Death Ray alone, because I have to have that Augment in order to farm and harass really good.
So one of the biggest reasons I like this iteration is actually the ability to 'color-code' the augments.

For example since Q is yellow and E is red... if we allow you to merge Q and E what color would that be?.........(drumroll)........ ORANGE!!

The stats will probably be nerfed, they are EXTREMELY gold efficient because they take up a slot late game, if we give slot efficiency back it is difficult to justify the gold efficiency.


The true evolution Solcrushed
05-11-2013 08:21 AM
General Discussion

Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

05-11-2013
7 of 17 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTemptragon View Post
That sounds pretty awesome. Stats as well, or only the enhanced abilities?
Stats too, since one of the common complaints about Viktor is that the Core feels like a waste of a slot late game.


The true evolution Solcrushed
05-11-2013 08:16 AM
General Discussion

Solcrushed

Live Balance Designer

05-11-2013
6 of 17 Riot Posts

Updates!

I have been consulting with the Pony on the issue.

We will be trying out a version where he can 'merge' the augments together by spending more gold.

Obviously this is an iteration and subject to change!


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:38 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
517 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute 42 View Post
Hello Morello,

As a fan of melee adcs, I have a suggestion: Why not make melee adcs into reverse bruisers?

Let me explain. A typical bruiser's tankiness is item-gated, whereas his damage/disruption is ability-gated. Why not make melee adcs' tankiness ability-gated and have their damage/disruption be item-gated?

Basically, melee adcs would have kit tankiness/cleanses/etc., so they would be incentivized to build glass cannon adc style and still survive as long as they maximize ability usage and minimize risks of counterplay.

Riot design has tried to do this with Yi meditate, Tryn ult/heal, and Fiora ult, so why didn't that work?
I think there are two reasons:

1. These champs actually have too much damage and attack steroids packed into their kits. This inflates offensive power at the cost of keeping defensive abilities fairly weak.

Fiora's parry and trynd's heal have to be weak or else they would be op because of their kits' built in crit chance/attack speed buffs. If you went in the opposite direction and took offensive power away from their kits, you could add more powerful defensive/mobility options. This would allow melee adcs to truly be reverse bruisers with ability-gated tankiness an damage coming mostly from itemization.

2. Defensive abilities in the game tend to have low visibility and low counterplay.

This is a big one. Tryn is frustrating largely because it is so difficult to tell when his ult starts and stops. A perfectly timed Fiora parry has 0 counterplay because she can activate when the attack animation has already started. Yi's meditate begins instantly and can only be countered with hard cc (not all champs have this).

So far, Riot design has been excellent at making offensive abilities with high visibility and counterplay. Skillshots are perfect examples, but even targeted abilities with travel time have lots of room for counterplay.

Why can't we get defensive abilities right?
Defensive abilities are missing two crucial mechanics:

Time delay: It's rare for an offensive ability to deal damage instantly. Spells and skillshots almost always have travel time, meaning there is a crucial delay between firing an ability and achieving an effect. This delay allows for counterplay and satisfaction from hitting a difficult skillshot. However, almost all defensive abilities take effect instantly. If Fiora's parry created a 2s delay timer over her head before it activated, it could afford to be a whole lot stronger and more satisfying. If Yi's meditate had a visible 5s delay, maybe it wouldn't have to be channeled.

Positional sensitivity: Skillshots have to be aimed and they depend on your position and that of your opponents. Most defensive abilities are personal buffs that do not care about positioning/aiming. Maokai ult is the best example of a defensive ability that is positionally sensitive. What if Tryn's heal instead triggered a roar with a cone skillshot that healed him more depending on how many champions he caught in the cone? What if Yi's E instead sent out a Wuju shockwave in a circle around him that gave him more defensive stats based on how many champions in the circle were facing him? What if Fiora could create a dueling ground area where she received cc mitigation? These are just spitballed suggestions, but the point is that there is much more room for interesting defensive abilities that rely on positioning.

TL;DR If defensive abilities' underlying problems were fixed, we wouldn't have to push melee adcs into assassin or bruiser roles. We could instead make their kits largely defensive, and they would get damage from items. With what you propose (erasing melee adcs as a class or leaving them in their their current state), the problems of defensive ability visibility and counterplay will not be solved.
This is the route I've been investigating, though that so far hasn't worked. I don't think it's a fatal flaw, but definitely harder than advertised. The root of this problem is that Ranged Carries do so much damage that "more damage" isn't a sufficient reward for melee ADC. The tools listed here (and the examples on our melee carries) let them get closer to doing their jobs, but the reality is that the risk isn't worth it in many cases.

I'll post more on this later, but your analysis on this matches up a lot with my own. Xypherous is exploring a different approach so we can understand more about this and try alternatives.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 12:04 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
516 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reep View Post
Thanks for the response! To answer your question, yes, I will always be satisfied with Alistar, regardless of what you change.

Alistar is by far the best peeler in the game. 7 second CD (max cdr) on W and Q makes it almost impossible to "dive" his carries during a lategame teamfight. Knockback and knockup CC's are invaluable, partially due to how tenacity works. Because of this, it might as well be impossible to "nerf" this aspect of Alistar without remaking the champion. You can lower the stun duration, you can raise the mana costs, you can raise the CD's, and Alistar will still do the very same thing.

This is why you are correct to assume that the imbalances reside in his E. I would argue that his ult could also use a change. When Guinsoo remade Alistar, I urged him to leave the flat AD on Unbreakable Will. This is because I was an advocate of AD Alistar (trinity+CDR). Nowadays, the usefulness of the flat 60/75/90 AD has phased out. If I'm going to build a Sheen, it's building into an Iceborn Gauntlet. Rarely do I even complete that item in the first place, because I find myself buying Sightstone, Kindlegems, Boots 5 and oracles.

To sum up what I'm trying to say - it would be pretty hard to ruin what "Alistar is". If you are going to nerf/change his sustain (and rightfully so), please take a look at mana costs and how it will affect his laning phase vs long range poke. If you change his ult (I urge you to), consider removing/changing the AD portion of it. AD Alistar simply isn't a viable build at any respectable elo where your gold income is spent on health, wards and utility. His abysmal attackspeed is only alleviated by items like Trinity and Zephyr - items that supports simply don't have money to buy.
Great feedback - Statikk and I will discuss these specifics. I'm likely going to make E not a lane sustain tool, but maybe something else helpful when aggression and peeling is what's happening (Alistar needs the risk of being worse when he's behind, like other good tank supports).


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 12:01 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
515 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ploki122 View Post
I just have to ask, because my guess is that you willingly "ignored" most of the threads about this subject, and I'm talking about AP Yi. While I do think it's somewhat sad to be left in the dark about that topic, I do see various valid reasons why you wouldn't answer, most of them in close relation to the NDA/expectation-creation.

Still, I've gotta say that I don't see why AP Yi was able to live for so long. Personally, I believe his gameplay is pretty toxic and, even if not to that extent, I believe I'm not alone in my boat. To give a context of why I expect something to be done (and why I expected it much sooner), we can look at recent nerfs/reworks...

Before the AP nerf on Meditate, he was extremely similar to AP Tryndamere when it came to negating damage, except that his kit figured resets.

Right now, he is standing in a spot extremely similar to Old Katarina, where his whole kit depends on the enemy's lack of CC to stop him. Old katarina was "gutted" because of that, because it lead to unfun games where either she was roflstomping and negating the opponents' fun, or she was useless and not having fun.

Otherwise, you also nerfed Akali (semi-hard), because she was highly toxic at lower brackets/summoner levels because of how much you need to rely on your allies to counter her (3-dashes, high burst). Similarly, Master Yi requires teammates to know about him to counter him. If you don't save a CC for his meditate, you're back to square one, if you hang even remotely close with low hp, you give him free resets and allow for an easy pentakill.

You also commented about AP Sion because his kit was bland, one dimensional and allowed little to no counter-play... You should know where I'm going with this by now.

So my question, on a scale from 0 to 10, 1 being that you are thinking there may be a problem with him and 10 being that there is something coming out very soon, how close are we to enjoy playing against AP Yi?



P.s. I know he is counterable, but you can't counter him as well in blind picks and ARAMs, with the latter being an even worse offender.
You're right - it is toxic and we agree. It's not overpowered, but it's definitely bad gameplay interaction. We're working on something a little bigger to fix Yi more, so we're waiting for that (which shouldn't be too much longer).


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:45 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
514 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydelle View Post
Morello can only do math in one direction on the spur of the moment. Morello likes fights with a clearly defined outcome instead of complex outcomes. Morello is ZZZZZ.

I hate you for hating healers. Dozens of thousands of unselfish players will thank the gods when you disappear, or have a change of heart, that works too.
Actually, players who want their character to be strong and represented even if it hurt a game they really like aren't being "unselfish..."


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:39 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
513 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by theoryyy View Post
B-b-b-but you were in the balance team for Guild Wars, which had the coolest pvp ever for a rpg. Did you forget monks?!

I mean, it does have its place in a combat based game. If you have 500 characters designed to build damage, why can't there be one to heal that damage?
And Monks are the most fun healer design to play that I've seen, agreed. Monks also dictate everything about Guild Wars' PvP. The whole game IS the Monks. Monks being fun comes at the cost of every other class feeling way worse.

That's why dedicated healers are not a good design in PvP.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:37 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
512 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by imweasel09 View Post
So, we're basically never going to be able to have dota style melee carries and all the current melee carries are being reworked into assassins? What changed between making fiora and now to make it feel like there is literally no solution to this problem.
I'm not willing to make BKB just to add a new class to the game. Game becomes way, way worse for it.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:37 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
511 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by turrdfergason View Post
Why can't an option be to rework them correctly?

If Dota can make a Melee Carry (Void Walker) work why can't league? Melee Carries should be the most high risk high reward champs. It feels like you hold them back because of the assassin style champs. USE YOUR NOGGIN!
Oh, we should just think about it. Good advice and seems like something we did not do before!

-_-


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:36 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
510 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimi Tse View Post
morello some people claim that you do not have a greencard, is this true?
As someone born in the US, that's correct, I don't have a green card.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:33 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
509 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Borand View Post
Hi Morello. I am a Hardcore fan of traditional Sion (and by traditional, I mean AD lifesteal tank), and I want to participate in the discussion about him. I trust your design decisions on him. So far I agree with you about him.

Here's my own input:

1. Visually/Artistically/Thematically: I think this guy fits in the Shadow Isles theme more than he fits the Noxian theme. I wouldn't mind seeing a drastic rework on his base skin and analogies to make him fit there even more thematically. What do you think of this?

2. Gameplay: To be honest, there's not much to say here since our opinions coincide quite a lot. I like him as what he was designed to be, and I don't like his AP gameplay. I would like to see him in line with the new champions though, I think that not giving him new mechanics will make him feel -or be- outclassed.
Regarding the AP thingy: As I said, I don't like it. But there's people that are heavily attached to him, and I do think that his kit can be remade to contain both the AP and AD gameplay. If you would like to hear my idea, I'd gladly provide it (actually, I'm not posting it straight out because I want to know you saw this, and because I want to know whether you're interested in something like this.) What you'd do with that from that point and on would be totally up to you.

Thanks for hearing me out, I hope I get to discuss with you.
1) I think Noxian or SI could work. Depends on what story there is to tell - the undying, revered champion of Noxus, or something more supernatural?

2) Yeah, I just think for this character to have any cohesion, this is where we need to go. It's a cool direction, but a character that has two gameplay attachment styles will always have to pay a sacrifice to be fixed.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:30 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
508 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by woopyfrood View Post
Can I get a rundown of all the specific problems with old Trundle's design? I know his model was old. Saying it's like triangle feet on Nidalee seems unfair because nobody is clamoring for a new Trundle to have technology limitations.
I can't specifically as I'm coming into this after it's finished. This is something I like to let the art dudes decide (as it makes lots of sense to me to let artists think the most about art! )


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:29 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
507 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Cool View Post
Hey Morello, any updates to Classik's Rengar fixes?

Also, why not make the bola a longer range? It seems crappy that a CC move is such a close range thing.
Still getting it fleshed out. It's more substantial than just numbers, so requires more to test.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:27 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
506 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox P McCloud View Post
Morello, you recently stated that you want to make melee ADCs into assassin. If this is true, I find this very disappointing and the "easy way out". Also, if you do this, you're effectively eliminating the melee carry role from LoL completely. If you do decide to go with this option melee ADC enthusiasts and players will leave.

I know it doesn't mean much (and no it's not a threat at all, it's just my feelings on the matter), but if you do decide to make them into assassins and axe the role from LoL, I'm done with LoL---I'm sorry =/
Your other option is that we leave them alone, and they don't get to be valid characters. Do you have a preference?


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 10:24 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
505 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exe3 View Post
A couple questions and replies.

Firstly we have a number of one off races, eg: Trundle is the only Troll, Fizz and Nami are the only whatever they are ( :P ), Rengar the only tiger guy, Anivia the only elemental animal, Nasus/Renekton the only Egyptian gods as well as only the two angels and only 3 void monsters etc... What i'm getting at is will we see an expansion of existing races? It's a shame that the humans and Yordles are the only ones that have numerous champion offerings when there are quite a few other races out there begging to see more champion coverage.

You've been commenting on Alistar, what are your opinion on some of the spell locations (QWE) of older champions? What I mean is that if Alistar were made today headbutt would have been his E as that's where blinks go but as it is it's his W, would you ever consider swapping spell locations on older champions to match current conventions? Leblanc also comes to mind, I want to like her but I just can't get my head around her blink being her W. :S Tbh though I would imagine the response to be to keep them how they are for those who have been playing the characters for years which is fair enough.


That's a fair point though I don't completely agree in that TF2 still had the spirit of TFC (still an FPS, still the same classic 9 roles) and Valve weren't changing TFC itself.


While I disagree that he was as out of place as you seem to think he was I have to wonder how you feel about Urgot based on this remark. If ever there was a champion that needs an axe to the face and be completely redone visually it's Urgot, he really does make the League universe worse by his mere presence, but your comments so far elsewhere make it sound like you'd rather keep him. Is this your intention and if so why? What makes Urgot ok and Trundle not?
As for races, I think likely not for League as more of those could remove distinction of the existing characters. It's possible, but I think the pitch has to be really strong!

I'm not looking at changing the spell orders/keys on existing champions because it is really disruptive for current players. Janna's W and E really seem backwards to me on this front too

While that is true, that was definitely not the forum discussion pre-launch on TF communities. All of the hardcore fanbase was up in arms over specific details like no grenades/no conc jumps, CTF not being as big of a focus, all sorts of little details. But TF2's direction was the right direction to take the series. It wasn't a rehash, it wasn't unrecognizable, but TFC has some terrible things in it - terrible things they needed to jettison. Had Valve listened to hardcore TFC players during development, I'm pretty sure we'd would have ruined TF2.

Urgot and Trundle both represent the edges of a "range," and that's something I appreciate. My earlier comments on not redoing niches in the future is a big piece of this. Urgot also, artistically speaking, has a higher quality model and such - though he could use a VU.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 12:39 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
504 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmatorture View Post
I'm a little confused. You say you want to create discussion in the future and keep pointing to my Sion thread as an example of that, yet there was no discussion there. Many players responded that they enjoyed AP Sion's playstyle as a walking time bomb and that if his counterplay-less Q was changed he might make a healthy addition to the game, and your only answer was "then he'd just be AP Sion+ and that's not good" despite you yourself saying his W was compelling. Can you clear this up at all? Do you not think the exploding shield move is a compelling enough move to design a champion around?.
There's more thread, but a lot of this is about Trundle. I will talk about Sion!

I think the Shield mechanic is cool, yes, but that's not a character, that's a skill. Does it actually matter it scales on AP, AD, HP, or etc? I think it's a great tank skill (as the shield draws fire to reduce damage), so yes, but I don't think everything about it is great. It doesn't need to be AP, it doesn't need to be 1.0 on the ratio, it shouldn't be on a kit with a reliable hard CC, etc. So, when reworking Sion, unless we can't make it work, or the problems outweigh the benefits, we'll try to keep a version of the something like that.

I think, though, Sion is a very different problem; his gameplay has to be fixed (and this is not the first nor last time I've had to do this) and his theme isn't bad or unpopular, he just doesn't really have one. It needs to be developed. Zombie brute is a cool guy, but Sion does nothing to really accomplish that outside of some of the passive things on his kit - but that can be developed too.

So, the discussion is for me to find out if there are big creative attachments. Everyone is attached to something, and change should occur, so that conflict will always exist - I just want to minimize it. "Player-focused" doesn't mean "do whatever someone says," but it means a player-first attitude. I think we can do better on creative overhauls - gameplay ones, though, are sometimes tough medicine. For me, the health of gameplay will always, and always has, trumped attachment, but when possible we'll be respectful too. Sion's one of the most extreme examples on where more will change than stay the same, though.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-09-2013 12:13 AM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-09-2013
503 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reep View Post
What exactly do you have in mind?



Alistar's sustain was pretty out of hand until you guys nerfed the mana to health efficiency at early ranks. As a result, Alistar cannot spam heal if he wants to use his full rotation (Q+W+R), which is easily 250 mana. Alistar has 3 absurdly strong abilities (Q, W, R) and you want to change E? I do not follow...

If you change how the heal functions, that is one thing - but you give him an entirely new ability in an attempt to nullify his versatility, you may find yourself creating more problems.

Think about it - you can't give him a CC ability on E. You can't give him a damaging ability. You can't really give him a tanking ability... All you can give him is some useless passive or a gutted self heal. If that is the case, I don't really see the point, especially his sustain is the only thing that sets him apart from Leona in most situations. Why pick Alistar with a gutted heal when I can pick Leona and triple my damage output, while doing virtually the same thing?
True, the duo-role makes him distinct, but it also means he can't be great at any of it. Personally, I think headbutt and his ult are adding a ton of what "Alistar is." As a longtime Alistar player, Reep, would you be satisfied with him remaining as is currently with little/no number changes? This is the real tradeoff I'm working with on this one.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 10:33 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
502 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasma View Post
The only thing I could of think of that I would want to ask Morello is,

Hey, wanna play D&D? I'm trying to get a group together.
I haven't tabletopped in a long time! So time-consuming these days


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:58 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
501 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bossnja View Post
Hey Morello. Do you still plan on replying to this thread? http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...64319#37464319

I know you mentioned you were going to when you had more time. Do you still plan on it or are we supposed to be content with Statikk's response?
Statikk's response is great - and he knows more about balance fine details than I.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:57 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
500 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEnglish22 View Post
In other words, you plan to remove his E, because you hate heals. Am I not right?
Hate dedicated healers - which Alistar is not. But he can't be a peel, setup and safe sustain supporter all at the same time. Which do you think is the most important to a big bull minotaur?


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:56 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
499 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viktorious Alekt View Post
Please, I ask the same question. Summoner Spells recommended during a Champion Spotlight are pretty much always Smite+ flash.
This is a bit suboptimal, but because I think Flash makes the game better (Shurelia actually convinced me of this back in the day, and I still think she was right), it's worth low variety for now.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:55 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
498 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
Which is amusing because Udyr is also really binary. A little less so with the minidash on his bear stance, but still.
The primary difference is escape opportunities after he reaches you. The longer combat paradigm helps this too.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:54 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
497 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squilcher View Post
I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe you should try listening to your fan base instead of ignoring them.
I do listen - I just sometimes say "no" because giving one person what they want can come at the greater cost to a lot of other people. Welcome to game development.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:49 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
496 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by woopyfrood View Post
Morello, how do you feel about Trundle's VU being the worst-received champion release in League history?

Is Riot going to do something about it?
woopy, you posting something 300 times to look like there's more traction only makes me more skeptical, not more sympathetic.

Explained in the above posts.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:48 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
495 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Can you explain this? It always seemed like the counterplay to a non-gapclosing champion was to stay out of their range. What is it about Skarner that lacks counterplay?
It is to an extent, but a move speed buff, ult hard CC and a slow means that it's really binary. Compare that to Udyr, who has no inherent slow and weaker CC - that shows this pattern in action more properly.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:44 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
494 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by profirix View Post
Reading this thread after so many years and seeing all of the ideas that people have expressed concern about in terms of balance and champion design, I am humbled to know that Riot actually is listening to the fan base and has implemented so many of these concepts and continues to do so.

>Varus' creation
>Elise's creation
>Fiddle's surprise party skin
>Volibear's creation (against Zileas' vehement opposition)
Honestly the list goes on but I am too lazy to recollect every little thing

Thank you Morello and company for giving me a game that at times may frustrate the hell out of me (I blame the community) but has kept my interest now for over 2 years. To many more years of firing lasers, eating my opponents, and chasing he who should not be chased.

My only two cents in all of this: MOAR DRAGONS! Your quota for over-sized fire-breathing lizards is severely lacking.
<3

We try to do a lot on this front, we just can't do everything for everyone because there's only so much we can do, and so many people want so many things!


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:39 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
493 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by trazleon View Post
Hey Morello this is the first time i have asked a question to a rioter so i hope it gets answered.

any word on Dark Crusader Mordekaiser skin that got put on hold from over a year ago??

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...9#post19221189
I don't have an update on this right now - sorry!


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:38 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
492 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumutherguy View Post
@Morello, do you have any plans for Alistar, given that problems with the w+q combo and the rework forced you to repeatedly and heavily nerf him into borderline nonplayability? A new rework, buffs, shifting numbers around, reverting the old rework, anything?

As a suggestion, his current passive is very awkard for laning (if i want to heal/sheen proc, i have to push/disrupt my own cs/disrupt my ally cs) and towerdiving, one of Alistar's old strengths (heal or target non-champions under the tower? better hope nobody's near you). Some means of lowering its inconvenience would be neat. Heck, remove it entirely and give him a new one, thereby killing the inconvenient passive and inherent difficulty balancing ali due to jungle strength birds with one stone.
We have to basically do some bigger work here - likely getting the E to be different. We're talking about this now.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:36 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
491 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bes7iA View Post
has ever been a champion that when you heard about it, you think on something like this
"thats the most ridiculous idea i had ever heard"

but after more detailde explanation you change your mind and think of something like this
" Oh, thats a really good idea"
I'm usually the one with the ridiculous ideas on this stuff, and the team is the balancing factor.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:35 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
490 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avenging Angel View Post
Hey Morello, why did you ruin Karma? Just cause you hate sustain and don't know how to implement heals that arn't "unhealthy?". Stop terrorizing supports. Thanks.
There's a lot of posts on dedicated healers in this thread. My stance on that is not changed (and if anything more firm today than 2 years ago).


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:33 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
489 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exe3 View Post
While I'm glad you have learnt this lesson i'm still bewildered as to why this was a lesson to be learnt at all, this should all be honestly common sense. Have you not seen the reaction to the reboots to many classic franchises recently when a developer goes on a tangent and forgets what the series stood for thus making the fanbase stand up and upend some tables? The unreleased FPS XCOM recently got remade because of the uproar.

Again i'm glad we won't be seeing stuff like this again except in extreme circumstances but how you thought you could blindly go in and change whatever you felt like in the first place is beyond me. It shows a disrespect to the playerbase imo.

Sorry if I come across as rude or a d!ck here, that's not my intent.
I have - the balance is important here and what you intend to do. Sometimes it's a good idea, sometimes not.

A counter-point is TF2. As an original member of the TFC community, listening to us would have ruined their otherwise successful game.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:28 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
488 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muranodo View Post
I'm going to offer some subjective feedback here as a very passionate and outspoken niche player that enjoys a lot of monster designs in League. I find this push to be encouraging (though I wish it had been in play before the Trundle matter). That this type of system is being considered speaks of a compromise to me. So, I'm hoping you'll continue the conversation with me.

I do appreciate Lissandra and Vi much more in terms of visual fidelity. Lissandra was a very pleasant surprise to me; it's the kind of risk I'd prefer during the Syndra/Elise (drider skin, please) / Zyra (more infestor/plant skin and/or rework please) period. But there is one request I'd like to make of Riot since we're discussing the future.

Please don't leave the Traditional Trundle skin as it is. You identified it well when you mentioned he was a niche champion and would have remained one even with an expansion. He feels like a champion meant for me that wasn't otherwise offered. I've suffered from depression, feeling abandoned, and otherwise being about to give up on human connection.

His lore spoke heavily to me given this detail. The visual stand point of old Trundle further drove this home. He looked visually like an outcast in his runt-based/diseased/lanky way. I knew he'd stay niche for this, but I didn't mind. He was the kind of champion release that I treasured. After I purchased him with IP, I didn't regret it ever. I enjoyed everything about him. And I kept hoping for a cool skin.

Had new Trundle been released as a skin, I surely would have purchased it to show support. I intend to do so with his other skins if his Traditional variant is fixed. The present version of it, however, lacks the same spark as Trundle on live. I'm sure you've heard why.

I largely lump Trundle in with the likes of Gragas and Urgot that support otherwise very select niche groups. But, they offered a lot of value to someone completely new to the game that wanted to pick a different champion that didn't fit common fantasy wants. I was amazed at the choice when I joined because of this. I'm glad League is trying to stay true to variety, but the present niche needs to be preserved too. You don't have to make another Gragas, Urgot, or Trundle, but they're so valuable because they are rare.

It doesn't have to be prioritized immediately. I know there are lengthy development times. But I think it's important as a sign of good faith to admit more than the mistake and take action: Make the promise and commit the relaunch and/or skins team to fix Traditional Trundle to respect the old version! We take a lot of Riot's words on good faith. This is a way to show that you understand and appreciate all players by making Traditional Trundle the full-on old Trundle. I decided to keep purchasing RP rather than protest. Please, prove to me you're willing to support me too. It doesn't have to be another champion.

Trundle was a champion that very outwardly represented his lore. And his body type, disease effect (buzzing flies that should be on his body and not the pillar), and tripod walk/hop are all crucial there. His Q animation should be fixed too. I'm still not sure why the new Q animation was deemed fitting for a feral, diseased troll.

Keep in mind that we were promised our dirty little pigpen. I believe the skin needs to be reworked for that purpose. I understand this is not my game alone. I understand it won't be in the future. But the greatness of League is the overall representation.

Please fix Traditional Trundle for the niche and devoted base. I've talked to a lot of upset players over this past few weeks, and they love the game. This is killing a lot of them.

Just a promise for now to give the skin a proper resemblance would quiet the unrest and try to get people to support a new direction. It seems the best compromise.

I want to have faith in the ever developing direction. And I think for this group there needs to be this. Not some blight where some very devoted niche players were just left scorned. I want to move forward together. As you said, it is an important topic.
This is even-headed (and I very much appreciate that!), so I wanted to respond. This is the last thing I will say on Trundle (as my concern primarily lies with the approach as opposed to being directly involved with Trundle) overall. I think what's been said has been presented by everyone, and we're continuing to repeat points.

My approach in the future will be as stated - and when we do need to creatively change a character, my goal is to give warning so there can be a discussion and we don't miss some important details that are important to players.

First, let me make sure I understand the standpoint on "fix Traditional Trundle" requests. It's that the animations on the new one look pretty different than old Trundle, correct? If that's the case, then allow me to explain (I mentioned this in the other thread, but I'll put it here too) the stance on that.

The desire, in this case, would be to be extremely true-to-life to the original Trundle. To preserve legacy and attachment to the removed character. And you're correct in thinking the Traditional skin is meant to capture as much of the original flavor as possible. The issue with this is, though, that requires a new character's worth of work to support, or would require us to basically put original Trundle back in the game.

Neither of those options will happen or are on the table. To elaborate;

* Preserving the legacy to this degree of detail is not worth the opportunity cost (ie, what else those animators/3D modellers/etc could be doing). Legacy is not the only thing that can be important in League, and in this case, it's simply not important enough for me to allocate this stuff to this project. How many champions need reworks, a second skin, haven't had a skin in a year? How much more does it add to the game to create a new champion? In both cases, these are more important by a substantial amount. Not popular, but true.

* Removing the previous version of Trundle, artistically, is a major goal behind why we reworked him in the first place. He looks terrible and makes the entire game look worse as a result. This, to our game, is like returning triangle feet on Nidalee's legacy skins after the rework out of people who would be attached (different example, but artistically similar).

This is why we won't just change it, and why I think the right approach is to avoid this situation in the future when reworking champions - a very important and clear lesson. Those costs can be avoided altogether when done this way.


@Morello (Official!) Morello
05-08-2013 09:13 PM
General Discussion

Morello

Lead Designer

05-08-2013
487 of 517 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psyclone Joker View Post
Was there ever a point where you considered making a champion with more than four skills? Not counting transforming champions, I mean a normal champ with five or more skills.
No, we don't want to just make the controls needlessly complex. Working within the 4-skill framework (like doing transforms) lets us get the same benefits without needing custom UI/confusion.