Thread / Thread Starter Developer Post Forum
Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-13-2014 01:38 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-13-2014
25 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScionOfOrthanc View Post
@Scruffy
How will the mini-quest upon hitting level 16 with a kha on the enemy team interact with BoTo necklace? Or are you scraping that?
We will definitely keep it!


Skarner Rework Follow Through RiotScruffy
02-13-2014 01:37 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-13-2014
7 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by corals View Post
This is one of the better critiques, also skarner does feel different and that is a fair critique, player attachment is what makes the game go round.

I think they should lower the slow on his E slightly and every time some one attacks a target or slashes them another slow is added for 1 second. So he can slow a bunch of people slightly then pick a target to stick too, increasing the duration of the slow on that target by 1 second. 3.5 second slow is more up time and an answer to the cool down increase on E, particularly if it affords skarner an extra auto or two to decrease E cool down.
This is a good point, and we try to retain the core appeal of a character when they get reworked and in this case Skarner may have shifted a bit too far away from the CC tank role that he had before. Strengthening his CC seems like the right direction in the follow up to make Skarner closer to what his fans really loved about him before.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-13-2014 01:22 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-13-2014
24 of 48 Riot Posts

Hey all, another update on Rengar progress. So far the changes are testing well, but we noticed 2 major things that needed addressing:

-The cooldowns on Q W and E were not matching up well creating a strange pattern for building up ferocity that couldn't really be planned around or mastered
-Rengar has a great time setting himself up for a team fight, finding a backline target and ambusing, but after the fight against his target is over (win or lose) he has no way of getting out or really doing anything meaningful at that point.

So to solve those problems, we're testing 2 new changes, which seem promising:

-Standardize Q W and E cooldowns to 3 12 and 9 at all ranks creating a clear and learn-able combat pattern, the damage per skill level is adjusted to match the new cooldowns
-5 seconds after Rengar unstealths from R he will enter stealth a second time for 3 seconds and be able to leap.

The second change is really interesting: it gives Rengar a fixed window where he is trying to eliminate his target and then can decide if he should run away, try for a second target, or even use his second leap to all in the first target if he failed to kill them initially.


Skarner Rework Follow Through RiotScruffy
02-13-2014 09:24 AM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-13-2014
6 of 28 Riot Posts

This thread is about follow up, and we are actively looking to improve the changes to make them something that Skarner players and all players are satisfied with.

The most frequent complaint I'm seeing is that a lot of the CC power that was core to Skarner's appeal is lowered, and that it's something that is core to his identity. So, with balance changes aside for the Skarner followup, this is something that we can try to bring back. His current pattern has more dueling/fighting power but less CC, but we can shift some of his power back into more impactful CC that will bring him closer to CC tank role that he had before.

Edit: if this is not a direction that you would like to see more of Skarner's power shifted into that is ok too, I'm collecting feedback.


Skarner Rework Follow Through RiotScruffy
02-12-2014 09:00 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-12-2014
5 of 28 Riot Posts

Something that seems worth clarifying is that with the rework we wanted to introduce some windows where Skarner's opponent has the opportunity to escape, but we also have increased the power and versatility of Skarner's CC when he does use it. Skarner has a stronger slow that he can apply at range without having to build up on a target, when used correctly this can be a very powerful tool (especially when setting up for an ult in a team fight).

Further increasing the CC/Power spike when Skarner makes his play is probably the area that we would buff him in if we saw that he was undertuned.


Skarner Rework Follow Through RiotScruffy
02-12-2014 04:58 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-12-2014
4 of 28 Riot Posts

I see a lot of concern over his early game power and just power level overall. This is exactly what we are going to address in the follow up patch. We are totally committed to making sure Skarner is viable if he is not.


Skarner Rework Follow Through RiotScruffy
02-12-2014 03:18 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-12-2014
3 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by mi ramfan View Post
I think what Skarner needs is the ability to cast Q while moving, because right now having to spam Q as well as autoattacking for damage just forces Skarner to stutter step everywhere and makes it next to impossible to chase anyone without the slow he used to have.

Just make Q and E able to cast while moving and see if that helps him. It certainly should make him able to keep up with champions like he used to without sacrificing DPS.
He is already able to cast Q while moving, but I have seen this suggestion for E from a few posters. I think that for a ranged slow like E, the cast time contributes to the risk/reward of the skill. A good Skarner that lands the E will catch up because of the payoff from the slow. This helps to differentiate skilled Skarners from the less skilled ones.


Skarner Rework Follow Through RiotScruffy
02-12-2014 03:16 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-12-2014
2 of 28 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebonyjohnson View Post
Skarners early game feels bad. I think his W movement speed early levels should be increased and his E's cooldown reduced would make a worlds difference.
We only have a small amount of data, but it does suggest that he struggles in the early game. If he needs buffs, this may be a good place to look.


Skarner Rework Follow Through RiotScruffy
02-12-2014 03:04 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-12-2014
1 of 28 Riot Posts

Hey guys,

We're really excited that the Skarner rework is now live, and we are playing him a ton on live, reading all of the forum feedback, and even watching a few Skarner streams. We are very passionate about him and we want him to be both a very healthy and fun champion for the game and a viable and balanced character.

These changes in 4.2 were targeted at improving his gameplay to accomplish a few goals:

-Enable more ability for Skarner and his opponents to display their skill
-Reduce the amount of feast/famine that Skarner can experience (when he's ahead he is unstoppable, when he's behind he has a hard time contributing at all)
-Create more defined windows of power for Skarner to create more interaction between him and his opponent

We think that the changes have accomplished these goals and we always try to release character in as balanced of a state as we can, but it is always a possibility that he is not balanced. The important thing here is that we are actively monitoring and planning on a follow up in the next patch for Skarner to make sure that he is balanced and viable.

Thanks again for all of your feedback, and we are always actively working to improve the game (and in this case Skarner). I'll come back to this thread to answer questions if you have any.

-Scruffy


Gotta hug 'em all! CaptnPanda
02-12-2014 12:15 PM
General Discussion

CaptnPanda

Player Support
Player Behavior Specialist

02-12-2014
12 of 25 Riot Posts

;D

-hugs-


Mods. I'm sorry. But this is more important than you realize. Poro'maw Picture. Riot Pwyff
02-11-2014 12:14 AM
Champ/Skin Concepts

Riot Pwyff

Player Communications

Follow Riot Pwyff on Twitter

02-11-2014
1 of 1 Riot Posts

While I can't in good faith make this a porority on the skins team, I'll at least make certain to let them know that we are trying very hard to shoehorn every champion into a poro skin.

Now someone make Poro'Gath.

Tha's all I got gang.


Pop Star Lux, Skin Concept (Art included!!) BuboBubo
02-10-2014 08:33 PM
Champ/Skin Concepts

BuboBubo

Business Analyst

02-10-2014
1 of 1 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latitoast View Post
Pop Star should be a full line of skins like Pentakill and Pool Party

That way the Pop Star group can go against Pentakill for a battle of the bands

+1 Riot pls!

Cool idea and nice drawing. Color scheme #1 feels more in line with "arcade" though, so I vote for color scheme 2.

Great work!


Matchmaking working as intended. Zileas
02-08-2014 06:35 PM
General Discussion

Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
5 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayArrrr View Post
Here's the thing with this post though.

Fist off, I believe individuals have more affect on the power percentage of the enemy team then you are letting on. A good player will roam out of his lane early, and often when his enemy is missing, and disrupt other lanes as well. Also, how long does it take before the MMR evens out so you begin getting players of your own skill? Is there anything in the works (especially with the new teambuilder coming soon hopefully) that will include individual statistics in the matchmaking process, such as CS and/or KDA when building teams? This should be easy to implement if people are queueing for specific roles. Have a certain threshold in each category that puts them in a specific MMR. For example, X amount of CS is equivalent to a bronze 5 MMR, and will be matched up with a support who's X amount of assists is equivalent to a bronze V player, ect.

As far as teamfights go, everyone knows that in low elo, regardless of how many times you ask in chat, regardless of how many times you ping the minimap, inevitably, there are a lot of people who are extremely bad att he game and will continue to refuse to group up in teamfights, resulting in losses. This is the main thing I am trying to avoid, players who play decently should NEVER be forced to play with people like that. It's very sad that you have stated that MMR is ONLY based on outcome. Doing research on my fellow teammates and enemies alike shows there is a significant difference in players skill levels that is very obvious when looking at the statistics of a loss or win. For example, the person who loses and goes 8/2/5 with 325 CS in a 43 minute game versus his teammates, who go 2/14/3 with 120 CS. Why do these two players get the same MMR reduction? This isnt' right, and doesn't accurately reflect the skill levels of the players involved, and is largely the reason behind these mismatches, I believe.

Shoutcasters don't talk about statistics in the LCS when showing who the best players of the region are for no reason, it is an accurate reflection of how skilled the player is, and should be taken into affect when trying to match players of equal skill, there is no arguing that point.
Statistics capture one aspect of player skill. They do not accurately measure contributions players make that primarily benefit their allies, such as good calls on attack/fall back, warding, making plays that are leveraged by other people... And they can sometimes capture 'bad play' such as going for CS when you should've just won the game. All things being equal -- higher stats = higher skill. But, it's entirely possible that someone who averages 200 CS on ADC per 30 minutes is a worse player than someone who averages 175 CS in the same role. They are most likely better than someone who averages 100. What I am saying is that stats probably measure no more than 2/3 of your skill as a player, and in some cases may only measure something like half. We could use these to alter ranked matchmaking directly, and have thought about it in the past for seeding, but wanted to avoid situations where players 'play to stats' rather than play to win (which would be super frustrating, and often involve ignoring your teammates), and thus, have refrained from doing so.

MMR over time is a more accurate measure of total skill, because it looks at your game results. If you actually ARE better than your average teammate, you'll also be better than your average opponent, and over time, you will win more than you lose, until your MMR is to the point where people are actually the same skill.

But some players are going to have stats that are 'stronger' than their MMR because they do things that arent measured in stats that are negative, or don't do things that they need to do that aren't measured in stast. I am suggesting that you are one of these players -- which we would expect is a pretty substantial portion of players (since, like, half of our players would be above-average on this index ;p). Speaking of myself personally, my personal stats as a support are inferior to average supports because I try very hard to not KS, but a lot of people at my ranked tier will take a lot less care as support... So, my stats would at a glance appear to show me being a worse player than I am.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-08-2014 11:08 AM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-08-2014
23 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by WishStro View Post
If his E is going to be changed to a skillshot then why would you have to remove the slow mechanic? What's the difference if rengar Bola's someone from bush then leaps from them? You guys are making it too complicated and over think things when you have 'x' amount of things on live servers that need to be fixed.
We are not planning on removing the slow from E, it's actually stronger to compensate for the loss of reliability.


Matchmaking working as intended. Zileas
02-08-2014 12:08 AM
General Discussion

Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-08-2014
4 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
No, it won't, because you will get players of roughly equivalent skill, not "equal skill".

This means that the average does not describe the potential hills and valleys per game.

And that the true 'quality' of the match is magnified by the game's mechanical balance.

So if Kha'Zix is OP, and I decide to pick Kha'Zix this game, and then I get first blood, well...
Oh. You are talking about how when LoL is played by players of equal skill against each other, you can still get a stomp or extreme snowball. Sure... that can happen, though, in that case it's not a matchmaking issue, it's just natural variance in execution and circumstances.


Matchmaking working as intended. Zileas
02-07-2014 11:34 PM
General Discussion

Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-07-2014
3 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Champion variance.

Snowball variance.
Which over several hundred games wash out to a very small effect.


Matchmaking working as intended. Zileas
02-07-2014 11:26 PM
General Discussion

Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-07-2014
2 of 5 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayArrrr View Post
On AVERAGE, I get 2.54 more kills a game, while dieing 3.7 LESS times per game, and I average 146.88 more CS PER GAME than this team.

If this isn't enough proof of a broken matchmaking system, then you are blind.
You know, you control 20% of the power of your team, and 0% of the power of the enemy team, so if you are above average vs your teammates today, with the way MMR works, you will eventually have teammates of equal skill... That's a mathematical certainty.

Of course, it could be that you are already being paired with equal-skill teammates on average -- it could be that your higher stats vs teammates are just that you are a stronger solo player than them, and a worse team player (who, for example, blames them on the forums in a long thread, or over-prioritizes CS over joining emerging team fights), which averages you out to the same overall ability. The matchmaking system acts on game outcomes, which you have control over.

It could also be that you play a role that tends to get higher CS and KDA (e.g. NOT support, and especially ADC).


Matchmaking working as intended. Zileas
02-07-2014 11:17 PM
General Discussion

Zileas

VP of Game Design

02-07-2014
1 of 5 Riot Posts

Step 1) Identify semi-rare matchmaking edge case (pre-made of people with level distribution from 6 to 30), and critique what appears to be a reasonably good attempt at offsetting it.
Step 2) Become disappointed at lack of community interest in this edge case.
Step 3) Post hourly thread bumps in an attempt to generate interest, and also criticize your teammates.
Step 4) ????
Step 5) Profit
*(Is ???? = "zileas responds"? not sure)

Sorry I could not resist. Given your persistence, I do have a real answer --

Matchmaking depends upon a large pool of players in similar situations to match quickly and effectively. When edge cases like this are introduced, it has less options, unless it wants to leave people hanging for a very long time. We've made the decision to not leave people waiting forever, and to take an "ok" match in favor of shorter times (and supporting people playing with their friends).

While I'm sure we could improve matches like this (we always can improve matchmaking and are doing so continually), I think this one is pretty good in terms of balancing 'not waiting 10 minutes' vs 'plausible match'. Note that if said premade plays together a lot and is actually winning often (not a given), their normal elo will raise very quickly and they'll soon be facing extremely difficult opponents who will beat them.

Sorry this came out of a bad experience you had -- and yes, sometimes the matchmaker will give you a 'meh' match (see below). But I really don't think this is an egregious matchmaking error. For what it's worth, we do want to increase the 4 man vs 4 man matching frequency, but matching a spread-out 4 man like that in a way that is 'obviously correct' is really hard unless you can find a more or less identical 4-man in a short space of time -- which is not a given.

Lastly, as long as we have millions of players playing every day, we will have some number of 'weird' matches like this. I know for a fact the severity and frequency has greatly decreased with time. We do continue to improve, but even if we invested years more into this, you guys would still see results that could be debated pretty frequently, just because even with millions of players, the system is just not going to be able to match edge cases against identical edge cases in a quick time -- we aren't willing to make players wait an hour for a perfect match, and that means every day there will be examples of 'not ideal' matches, though they will constitute a tiny % of matches.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-07-2014 08:51 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-07-2014
22 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishywtf View Post
RiotScruffy! Wait wait wait. You said that all ferocity abilities are based on the level like W at the moment. Doesn't that mean Rengar's ferocity damage will be capped off even if building damage?
Flat bonus numbers will scale with level like 100 damage + 1.0 AD. The AD/AP ratios will still be there for his item scaling.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-07-2014 04:02 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-07-2014
21 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parapsychology View Post
@RiotScruffy

What if the E slow was lost only if he jumped to the target? Picture Rengar being ganked up top and he bolas a far away minion acting as an escape. This balances the nerf to top lane as it being a skillshot now.
That may be a feasible solution, but I think there is a lot of value to not overloading Rengar with too many mechanics (he already has a lot as is).


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-07-2014 01:54 PM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-07-2014
20 of 48 Riot Posts

Ok Rengars, big awesome update:

So far the direction of starting a fight with 0 ferocity but building up reliably to a finisher is working out, but with the current design we haven't really committed to it 100% and allowed Rengar to have a really reliable and contained way to get to full stacks. So here's the new hotness that we are trying out.
(anything not mentioned is the same as the previous changes)

-Rengar's max ferocity is lowered to 4 from 5
-Q cooldown lowered dramatically to 4/3.75/3.5/3.25/3s
-Q attack speed buff lowered to 15/20/25/30/35%
-Ferocity Q grants 2 ferocity after use instead of 3
-Also trinket cooldown is lowered so that he can have 2 traps in the world at a time

The real linchpin of this new rotation is Q. With Q on a 3 second cooldown he can come in to a fight with 0 ferocity Q->W->E->3s cooldown->Q and hit the new max stacks of 4 for a finisher.

These numbers aren't final but what we have the potential to do here is really understand and balance the buildup to finisher rotation. I'll let you know how this works out in testing (crosses fingers).

-Scruffy


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-07-2014 09:22 AM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-07-2014
19 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ololoshev View Post
My main question is: will I be able to play assasin Rengar and blow up people, or you're going to make him another boring bruiser? Because right now killing people with his ult is the most fun thing in the game. I really don't want him to become yet another jax/rene/mundo/shyvana which are boring as hell to play in top lane. At least when I'm playing full ad assasin Rengar i feel like it is "high risk/high reward".
Even with the changes Rengar's teamfight role is still all about finding squishy targets that are separated from their team and blowing them up. With the changes we want to allow the opponent a (very short) window in which they can react to Rengar leaping out of stealth onto them.

PS - The leap on to target after E idea is really cool and it sounds like a lot of fun. To make that happen, we would probably have to remove the slow from E, which would really hurt his utility.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-07-2014 09:08 AM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-07-2014
64 of 82 Riot Posts

Ok, time for another installment of "Condensing feedback". All of this feedback originated right here on this thread. Items without asterix are thing that sound great, things with asterix are great ideas that need some explanation from me.

31. The Nexus needs to be updated
32. The Terrain feels too flat ***
33. Reposition the minion camps***
34. Add weather ***
35. Make the base look better
36. Higher tech deep water for the River
37. SR needs to be symmetrical
38. The map should feel war-torn
39. We need to avoid Visual and Audio clutter
40. The 2 sides need to be visually distinct Arcitecture as well as gamplay objects like towers
41. The 8-eyed wraiths seem really weird
42. Red Buff Spikes feel unnatural
43. Baron needs a VU
44. Flat flowers all over the map does not make sense
45. Make colorblind mode the default method of play


The Terrain feels too flat *** It totally does, but terrain elevation is something that will heavily impact gameplay. From a visual standpoint there is a lot we can do in the non-play space to give a better feeling of depth. Also the peripheries of the map have a lot of untapped potential for epic drops, mountains, and vistas. I think TT and HA have really good examples of what we can do in this regard.

Re-position the minion camps*** We actually did this a little prior to the 2014 season, so this is something that we would consider. I think camp positions are in a good state right now. If there are still concerns I would love to here what they are.

Add weather ***. Sure, but we need to do this very carefully because keeping the play-space clean and readable is one of our highest priorities. If you think about how snow is used in HA, it will need to be similar in any future application of weather effects.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-06-2014 02:37 PM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-06-2014
63 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by iAteMyVegetables View Post
Aww ok, sad Q_Q.

No reason to be sad... I just have a long standing policy of being as vague as possible. (or not)


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-06-2014 09:58 AM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-06-2014
62 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia View Post
I screenshotted it, and I'll upload when I get back from class. It's fairly easy to reproduce though. It normally occurs when you place a ward too close to the wall, or too close to the far end of the bush. I've actually placed wards in the brush before and then had characters literally disappear in the brush while the fog of war should have been revealed. I think the best solution would be to have ALL of the bush revealed if there's a ward in any part of it. That was the purpose of trimming the bushes in the first place, wasn't it?

I think that was one of the biggest reasons. Thanks for the help.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-06-2014 08:07 AM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-06-2014
61 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by iAteMyVegetables View Post


Pretty nice changes that you guys are working on.

Just wanted to make a note to clarify. I haven't said that we are (or are not) working on these changes. I am just gathering and condensing feedback.

Also, I will follow up on the brush. I was just hoping someone would do me a solid and grab a shot of the issue. I will look into it either way.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-05-2014 09:46 AM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-05-2014
18 of 48 Riot Posts

Hello Rengars. Two things to talk about today.

1. I'm trying out a unique vision active for the bonetooth trinket: Rengar places a trap that triggers when an enemy walks within its radius (~200 unit radius for testing). The unit is revealed with Rengar's heat vision for 10 seconds. His first attack against the revealed target will cause him to leap.

2. Lets talk about the ferocity change because I'm seeing a lot of comments about it. The goal here is that we do want Rengar to start fights and ganks at 0 Ferocity, but we have given him a lot of changes to compensate for this change. His E now has a stronger slow that does not decay over time (this is big). Also his ferocity bonuses on all 3 basic skills are buffed so that when he does reach full ferocity, he is rewarded with a big finisher.

I really appreciate the feedback you all are giving in this thread, Rengar is really going to be sick when we're through with him.
-Scruffy


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-04-2014 05:32 PM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-04-2014
60 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
If it's deliberate, why not have a visual denoting such? Moreover, why is it inconsistent? Given that, I can only assume that it's a bug, like many similar issues that have been around for years. As for a screenshot, currently busy watching a Project M tournament, might work on one after.
Well like I said I don't know one way or the other. But I definitely need a bit more context to track it down, whenever you can get to it.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-04-2014 04:58 PM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-04-2014
59 of 82 Riot Posts

Could you post a screenshot. There is an outside chance that this was deliberate... having a brush that is too big to ward at least.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-04-2014 04:15 PM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-04-2014
58 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
Maybe after the brush stops being buggy and weird, though.
If you could be a little more specific I would be happy to get the issue resolved.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-04-2014 01:41 PM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-04-2014
57 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcriner View Post
Can SR get some decent music?
I am going to try to talk our audio guys into visiting this thread to solicit feedback

Moving forward with condensing feedback here is the next block of issues. Again points without asterix are basic great ideas. Ones with asterix are things that I need to give some clarity on.

16. The minions need a VU
17. We should flip the golem camp so that they face the other direction***
18. More destructible content like HA
19. Make SR look like the beta-site background Illustration***
20. Make brush move dynamically
21. Add damage states to the turrets
22. More variety in tree types
23. There needs to be a clear (but not clean) boundary between terrain and path
24. The River needs to make more sense
25. The different sections of the map need slightly different themes
26. There needs to be SFX for walking through grass or water ***
27. The terrain could get more worn as the game progresses ***
28. The houses feel really unnatural in the forest, the statues donít make much sense
29. Summonerís Rift needs to actually feel like a Rift
30. Trees should wobble when you shoot a skillshot through them ***


Concerning the idea of flipping golem camp. Stone Bros serve a function of allowing additional farm when your lane is pushed. However, due to the meta this gives a distinct advantage to duo-bot lanes. Part of the reason why we added the Wight-camp is to mitigate this concern. Hopefully we solved the problem, but not in the way you were expecting.

Concerning the forum background illustration. I have written about this quite a lot. This image was created without the context of gameplay concerns so is not the best basis for a hypothetical new iteration of the map. It is crucial that all of our content be very readable and clear. This image is beautiful, but does not do what we need.

"there needs to be SFX for walking through grass or water" Yes, absolutely... eventually... I read on the forums about how players can get frustrated by how long it takes us to add pretty simple tech to our game. The simple answer is that there is a "Tech-debt" backlog that needs to get cleared before we have the capacity to add new features. This one is a no-brainer and will be a very high-priority... when we can get to it.

"The terrain could get more worn as the game progresses" A cool idea, I love how it would help create an evolving game narrative. However, it also has gameplay interaction that would need to be thoroughly tested. Also, we have some optimization tech that might make it really difficult to do that.

Trees should wobble when you shoot a skillshot through them" This is obviously a lower priority than having really awesome looking trees to start with, but I could see this as being a fun thing to do. You would still have the same suspension of disbelief issue when a skillshot penetrates a non-tree object like a rock or building though.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-04-2014 11:53 AM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-04-2014
17 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightdragoon88 View Post
Now can the bonetooth necklace be upgraded with money to get the upgraded version of ward, sweeper, clairvoyance?

If not, can it automatically upgrade if he gets like...10 trophy on the tooth?
I'm leaning towards having it upgrade with the kill stacks. So 6 kills gets the +1 vision upgrade and 9 or 14 gets the +2 vision upgrade.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-04-2014 10:11 AM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-04-2014
16 of 48 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackout376 View Post
While I like most of these changes. Don't you think that 10 sec is a little short for his passive? If a person were to jungle rengar it would make his passive essentially useless for ganking. You cant get from any of the camps to a lane and perform a gank in 10 sec. Time it out if you want but I still think Rengar should be able to effectively use his passive for ganking. a 20-25 sec time window seems a little more realistic.

Ya, after some testing 10 seconds did feel a bit too punishing. Right now he has 12 seconds, and it's based around combat instead of Ferocity gain. With those changes, it's pretty reasonable to keep the Ferocity going as long as you keep yourself in combat.


Rengar Rework Strikes Back RiotScruffy
02-04-2014 09:44 AM
General Discussion

RiotScruffy

Game Designer

02-04-2014
15 of 48 Riot Posts

Don't want to leave you guys hanging for too long. Just coming to update and say that we are doing small iterations and testing Rengar daily.

-We're tuning lots of numbers to get his laning, ganking and late game power in a reasonable place.
-We have also made the trinket available in yellow, red, and blue with each being the corresponding vision active (ward, sweeper, clairvoyance)

We're moving at a good rate with him and I'm still checking this thread for all of your feedback.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
02-03-2014 05:51 PM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

02-03-2014
19 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximum Jarvan View Post
Vesh I am a little upset that your first reply back to this thread was kn the VO but at least you came back. Can we please just revert some of the past nerfs and see if that helps her performance rate some without pushing her over the top first? I really don't think we need to a complete kit overhaul or turn her into a fighter. Someone pointed out that right now she has her own niche which is cool and I think we should appreciate that instead of taking it out of the game. She just needs a bit more damage and she will be fine. I am not asking for her shield ratio to go up or anything like that.

I know you think burst is toxic but remember that there is a class that can right click you and just win after two to three seconds which feels way more toxic when your mistake is I could be right clicked.
I still think you're misrepresenting what I've been saying a bit. At least once (and I think more) in this thread I have said I don't think she needs any dramatic changes. I think we all want a healthy and viable Diana who has fun interactive gameplay for both teams, and what I'm suggesting is that increasing the time/effort it takes to kill a target, but giving her more tools to accomplish that task, is a good way to accomplish this. Diana is a champion that should be focused on her autoattacks as well as her spells. She has that awesome moonblade and passive for a reason, and I feel that highlighting that and finding better ways to synergize her autoattacks with her spells is something that (hopefully) most Diana players would find cool.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-03-2014 04:38 PM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-03-2014
56 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by exec3 View Post
I thought the laser range was well defined, step on the steps and you get a laser to the face. Laser range was more an issue with the other maps particularly HA I thought.

Also you didn't bold any of the texts.

I should clarify, this is post 1 of 12. There have been almost 200 unique suggestions in this thread I want to give all of them their due respect. The ones in bold come later.

The suggestion about the laser turret was that If we make changes, dont make a change that would wreck the readability of the laser-range.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-03-2014 01:17 PM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-03-2014
55 of 82 Riot Posts

So remember when I said I went through all the feedback and made notes of all the unique pieces of input.... where here is the first installment of it. Items with asterix probably need some explanation, and I will get into those with more detail. Bold items were things that I thought were really suprising ideas that I think need more examination. Everything else are just solid ideas.

1. Textures and rendering needs to be higher fidelity
2. Flora is not integrated with each other or with the terrain
3. Flora scale is not appropriate to the champion scale
4. Baronís area does not feel as epic as it should
5. Architecture seems out of place with the environment as a whole
6. Objects in the map are repeated too frequently
7. The turrets do not look as good as HA
8. The Map needs to retain itís ďFairy TaleĒ thematic
9. The map needs to be single themed ***
10. Laser range needs to be clearly defined
11. The nav-mesh on the map needs to stay the same
12. The map must be highly performant on a min spec machine
13. The map needs better integration with the lore
14. There are props that seem inappropriate for the environment
15. The jungle camps need to be higher quality


So concerning the idea that the map needs to be single themed. I both agree and disagree. SR always needs to preserve a cohesive feeling of being a fantasy forest. There should be no good side vs evil side. On the other hand the map would benefit from very distinct areas of the map that players can use for orientation. At the moment the map contains several self contained POI's. Since those POI's are disconnected from any larger visual cues, they do not serve as effective ways of providing a player with orientation. We can do much better. We need harmony in the overall theme of the map and variety within that theme to provide interest and clarity.


Summoner's Rift Detailed Art feedback RiotForScience
02-03-2014 09:32 AM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

02-03-2014
54 of 82 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by XxJohnnyOxX View Post
You can change the jungle look, (for example, instead of pine trees, jungle trees) you can add little animals (they are neutral, and you can't kill them, but they move while the champion walks next to them) into the jungle, you can also make the river look more like a real river, by adding animations when the champion walks over it, you could make a bridge in the middle of mid lane (so the water goes under it, and looks realistic), you can upgrade the trees that surround SR to look more realistic too, including the torches that look outdated, and give a VU to all the monsters and epic ones. That's what I think that could improve SR map.What do you think RiotForScience
We have to add ambient life to SR so that it feels alive. There is a careful balance that you need to have with that though. You do not want squirrels running around on the groundplane in active team fights (It is one of the readons why we made Poro's run away from everyone). But having them in the actual islands off of the nav-mesh would be great.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
02-03-2014 01:36 AM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

02-03-2014
18 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by archonshope View Post
Hi Vesh, this might sound really weird but : could ask the voice actors to think of a real laugh for Diana ?

Like I'm one of those persons who likes to spam laugh in a while. I do it for various reasons : greeting my team mates at the start of the game when you help leach a buff. In dominion to show off your awesome emotes on the platform. If I play solo top and you try to mind game your opponent. most off all for the giggles, it's just for fun and I just like it

There are a few champions that don't have a real laugh like Diana and Darius (2 champs I really do like) but I'm sure their are way more.

when you /l all the say is "ha"

some of my favorite skins to laugh with is hyena Warwick, it's just sooooooooooooo gud (imo still the best laugh in the game for me).

Anyway, yes I understand Diana isn't the person to have a "rich" laughter, she's miss pouty lips that's kinda sad and serious BUT I'm sure you can find a wicked/dangerous laugh that would fit her personality.

"Ha" is just not doing it for me, I'm sorry.

Any chance you could make this happen, talk to the right people?
I think one of her core quirks as a champion is that her sense of humor is a little... off. Personally I love the fact that she lust does the one "hah." It feels appropriate for a champion that doesn't have much to laugh about. (this is personal opinion)


Gotta hug 'em all! jaywatford
02-01-2014 10:18 AM
General Discussion

jaywatford

Lead Sound Designer

02-01-2014
11 of 25 Riot Posts

*Audio hug*


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-31-2014 02:14 PM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-31-2014
17 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
Vesh, I want to deconstruct this a bit from the perspective of mechanical interaction in League:

So first, you're saying her 'de-aggro' tool is Zhonya's Hourglass. That means she has to build it.
If her teamfight kit doesn't work without Zhonya's, she's going to feel really bad before she has this item, and when it's on cooldown.
It restricts player interaction with her to "I have to rush Zhonya's or fail".

Second, you're saying she's going to come out of Zhonya's and start hitting a squishy.
What does squishy mean, though? Squishy means "Caitlyn".
Remember now that Zhonya's has the hidden text of "stuns your champion for 2.5 seconds".
So what actually happens when Diana goes in is that she applies a 2 second slow and stuns herself.
Caitlyn now isn't surprised. Jinx isn't surprised. They know Diana's there.
And they've laid traps, put their fingers on CC/flash, and backed away.

No one is around for Diana to continue her melee range progression.

Who does Zhonya's initiation work on? Lissandra. Why? Because Lissandra is ranged, has the ability to deploy two Zhonya's, and perhaps has more CC than most supports.

And she still tends to be not as good at it as tanks.

Does Diana have two Zhonya's and a ton of CC? No? Then in reality she's perhaps just giving enemies 2.5 seconds to savor her death.

"What about team follow up?"

Yes, your team can follow up. But since you're not a tank, they have to worry about you dying. Which means their follow up needs to be much faster and much more powerful because after Zhonya's Hourglass wears off, if they didn't absolutely prevent every nuke and disable, "initiation" may turn into "suicide for distraction".

In order to be an actual fighter who builds offensive items and goes in first, she needs absolutely titanic defensive abilities.

Because make no mistake, Riven isn't a fighter: She's a tanky assassin, and her only goal is to Wind Slash Caitlyn instantly after stunning her.
You're right. My last description was just one of many ways Diana could work (in this case with a hyper coordianted ranked team with follow-up CC). Obviously this isn't the majority of cases. In reality a more fighter-focused Diana would have a similar opening to an Assassin Diana where she waits for the tank to go in before engaging with her Q->R. The difference comes in what happens after that point.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-31-2014 12:26 AM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-31-2014
14 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Explosion View Post
But she's perhaps more of a stand and fight champion thematically, with some spectral mobility elements.
Diana doesn't hit and run. She chases down a heretic, slays them with her blade and then goes to the next one. She doesn't jump onto one of them and run away/do nothing for 10 seconds.

Thematically I think a more fighter style fits her, but at the core I think the gameplay is what should drive any adjustments.

It should still feel great to Q->R->E->W into a fight. I just want to make sure the actions that follow that feel good to Diana and don't feel like utter bull**** to her opponents. Fighter doesn't mean she only autoattacks. It means she has tools to help her deal sustained damage but she can still have bursty moments to finish someone off or even to engage with she at the end of the day shes also a champion that scales with AP.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-30-2014 11:54 PM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-30-2014
13 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asatorrr View Post
It's not about how well she performs RIGHT NOW, it's about how her kit informs her gameplay. I argue that her passive and shield and CC and all-in nature is more fighter than assassin. You're right that she can't go head to head with other fighters like Olaf, but I would like to see her in a state where she does. That to me is a lot more fun than another "derp derp assassin derp" especially one that can't or doesn't want to escape. THATS THE IDENTITY CRISIS SHE HAS. Assassins are In-N-Out because they are fragile. Diana's kit traded the Out for tankiness, and that makes for a hard to balance champion.
Yes. yes exactly.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-30-2014 03:35 PM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-30-2014
11 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lesbian Diana View Post
long post inc please read I care about this

Vesh, why do you insist there's something wrong with diana's sheild scaling with AP? Riven exists. The sheild is not a problem, you already nerfed it hard. Building 80 extra AP only gives the shield 48 more health, and that's only on full proc.

48 health on a shield for 1600 gold? How on earth is that a problem? All it does in laning phase is allow her to trade evenly with other melee assassins because she has ZERO sustain. See: akali, every ad assassin that can use lifesteal quints or vamp or tiamat



You said the issues is you don't know what she is, an assassin or a fighter, and yet we have champions like Zed, who are obviously an assassin, and yet Zed with any reasonable build (botrk lw brut boots, like a hourglass abyssal double doran diana) can stand toe to toe and bruise it out with ADCs with the same items and most top laners that arent ahead in levels by virtue of not roaming or having to back from ganks. Any AD assassin can slug it out by virtue of auto attacks. Akali (one of the other rare AP melee assassins) has natural bonus damage on auto attacks, builds both lifesteal and spellvamp, and has low cooldowns. Kha'Zix can out-duel pretty much every single champion with only the use of his Q spell in isolation if it's evolved. So what's the problem with Diana being fully capable of building single-target burst items and 1-shotting a carry (just like every other assassin) and then having an auto-attack steroid (bonus damage + a little attack speed) and a shield to be able to stay in the fight and bruise it out? The shield compensates for zero sustain (spellvamp was semi-almost-okay from the lizard elder but that was only if you were jungling her anyway and you took it away) and the auto attack procs with low cooldown QR combo make up for having no "real" auto-attack scaling without building Nashor's Tooth (which does inhibit flat-out burst).

So what exactly is the problem? If anything, the problem is you made her numbers too weak. She can still 1-shot someone by building DFG or Lich Bane which allow you to 100-0 a carry in two seconds with either item. She can't actually QRR someone for a kill at any stage of the game unless she's hyper fed without those items. Anyone that fed can do that, I've seen vayne 3 shot someone because she got IE and shiv before they finished their second item. So Diana can build an item or two to let her be an assassin, and then she's not that good at bruising in the middle of the fight, but with hourglass and resists she won't evaporate either. However, if she forgoes the assassin items for more AP for a bigger sheild, more DPS with the moonsilver blade procs and Nashor's tooth for CDR and the auto attacks, suddenly Diana can actually face-to-face duel with bruisers. She might be able to blow up a carry, but only if they're behind, once an adc gets negatron cloak nashor's diana cannot QRR for kill in almost any situation. Run the numbers.



All I see is that she's one of the rare cases where you can build her how you want. I've tried dps diana building her with things like wits, sunfire and gauntlet, and if you have a real assassin on your team, it actually works as a frontline or peeler. Nashor's tooth in the jungle is a really popular item that lets her auto-attack nearly on par with AD assassins who build BT, RH or bork, minus the lifesteal. Just because she's capable of building like an assassin and therefore was used as that role since 100-0 a carry is usually what is expected of the mid laner doesn't somehow mean that's a problem.

Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want? It's the exact same mechanic. (Almost) Anyone becomes an assassin when they are fed or build burst items, but Diana does actually have the option to be built as a fighter. The problem is she's actually somewhat weak at this because of having no sustain and a repeatedly nerfed (and apparently, soon to be gutted yet again) shield. What if her E had a passive spellvamp? Or a passive attack speed?

Saying diana's ability to QRR someone and kill them is bad is, I feel, just wrong. Every assassin does that, just list their combo and say "all you do is X and they die, this is bad" and it sounds the same. The reason people do that and almost nothing else on her is because that's not only a highly desired output from the mid laner but she can't perform the fighter role AS WELL as the competitors. This is because she has zero sustain, is mana heavy on her full combo (pale cascade is the most expensive spell along with moonfall) and AP itemization is not designed for the 'fighter' role.

I'd really like a response to my points because I feel like its really easy to single any champion out and pick apart how their kit works and point out things that you claim are issues without saying how those exact same situations are somehow not a problem on all the other champions with those. E.G. riven's sheild, malphite being perfectly capable of 1-shotting any carry with the build diana uses to do that, every other assassin being able to "bruise" better than diana without changing their build from assassin
There's a lot of stuff here, so I'm sorry if I don't respond to each point individually, but here are a couple things to consider:

Saying diana's ability to QRR someone and kill them is bad is, I feel, just wrong. Every assassin does that, just list their combo and say "all you do is X and they die, this is bad" and it sounds the same.

I explained in an earlier post that a core defining feature of a good assassin is having a way "out" if they succeed. Diana has an all in pattern where she either dies or gets the kill. If she lives past that point it's because shes impossible to kill with her W up, not because she did anything skillfull to juke the enemy team or escape in a way that's interactive. This is one of (but not the only) problem with making Diana a straight up assassin. The other problem is that her assassin pattern only has one place of interaction (dodging the Q) and if she hits it she just presses R twice.

Vesh, why do you insist there's something wrong with diana's sheild scaling with AP? Riven exists. The sheild is not a problem, you already nerfed it hard. Building 80 extra AP only gives the shield 48 more health, and that's only on full proc.

An AP shield isn't inherently problematic. It's a problem if she has an assassin pattern though, because it undermines the decisions she has to make. If she builds straight AP, she simultaneously can instant kill someone while also being incredibly tanky -after the fact-. When Diana is ahead there's literally no clear window in which to fight her, especially since the duration of the shield is pretty long when it matters most (when she's already on top of you from a targeted dash).


Should Malphite be having an identity crisis because you can build DFG on him and literally remove anyone without MR from the map whenever you want?

If this becomes the dominant build on Malphite then that's a problem. DFG creates some of this inherently which any champion that has a decent AP ratio + closing power, but with Malphite you are giving up a ton of survivability by going straight AP, whereas Diana doesn't have this weakness. Going straight AP on Diana still allows her to be even more tanky. Consider aslso that Diana frequently builds abyssal and zhonyas, which give her added armor and MR on that shield which is scaling with AP.

Anyway, to reiterate, it's probably ok for her to have an AP scaling shield as long as she isn't jumping on people, one shotting them, and then being tanky afterwards. A big consideration here is what type of items we want Diana to be building. If the shield scaled off health, she would be building items such as sunfire, haunting guise, rylais, etc. These are probably a lot less cool on her than items such as Nashor's Tooth and Zhonya's Hourglass which feel really good on her.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-30-2014 01:31 PM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-30-2014
9 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre Gadget View Post
Maybe something to look into is changing how the moonlight proc works. The reset idea is great, but since you think one of her issues is q-r-r maybe it needs to be taken out? What if the moonlight proc did damage instead?
This is definitely a possible tactic, since it would allow for her Q->R to still do reasonable damage without the abuse case of the second R.


Maps Skin Ideas RiotForScience
01-30-2014 11:27 AM
Art Feedback

RiotForScience

Senior Environment Artist

01-30-2014
13 of 16 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asatorrr View Post
winter SR, but with one change. POROS! POROS EVERYWHERE! POROS RIDING DRAGONS! POROS RIDING WOLVES! POROS SLEEPING IN BUSHES! POROS FALLING FROM THE SKY! POROS EXPLODING OUT OF TOWERS BECAUSE TOWERS SHOOT POROS AT YOU!

POWER THIRS-i mean-SUMMONERS RIFT: PORO EDITION!!!
I am not going to make any friends by saying this.. but I really think we need to keep poros just to ARAM. They work in that setting because of how much their cuteness contrasts with the grim darkness of the environment and play. In any other map they would not feel special.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-30-2014 12:40 AM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-30-2014
8 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spagyrist View Post
With respect to improving Diana's fighter cred, how about making W scale, not with health, but with attack speed? Here's what I'm thinking:

In order for Diana to use her shield she needs to build up orb charges, which she acquires through auto-attacks: say two AAs per orb, up to a maximum of 3 orbs. With zero charges, W is disabled - but the ability can be activated with 1, 2, or 3 stored charges. The strength and damage of her shield is proportional to the number of stored orbs - so a 3 orb shield is three times stronger than a one orb shield. To work in a balanced manner, orb charges will probably have to decay out of combat.
There are a lot of clever ways to make her W synergize with her autoattacks. This is definitely one way to do that, although probably not the cleanest solution. I definitely see value in your goal though and it's a (general) direction that I think is definitely worth considering.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. IronStylus
01-30-2014 12:25 AM
General Discussion

IronStylus

Sr. Concept Artist

01-30-2014
7 of 19 Riot Posts

Vesh plz


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-29-2014 03:21 PM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
6 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Specialist Nips View Post
I personally am fine with making Diana more of a DPS fighter rather than burst Assassin, on the condition that her kit, besides the numbers, be kept almost exactly as it is now. She has one of the most fun high risk, high reward kits in the game and I don't wan't that to change. So here is my idea: Add an armor and MR passive to moonfall, something like 5 Armor and MR per point in the skill. Then lower her ratios and possibly some of her base damages across the board. This makes the full AP assassin itemization significantly less appealing as you will have to be extremely fed to one shot a squishy. It makes a balanced build of both offensive and defensive items more attractive. Something along the lines of Sunfire, Zhonya's, Abyssal, Banshee's, Randuin's, and situationa; tier 2 boots. However if we lower her damages across the board she will desperately need mana cost buffs, so obviously there are alot of numbers that will go into balancing this. Overall however I think this would give her a nice balance of DPS and tankiness while still being high risk and high reward, and removing her ability to instagib.
TL;DR: Lower her damage, lower mana costs, give her an armor and MR passive on Moonfall, making her a DPS bruiser rather than a burst assassin.

I don't think Diana needs any sort of sweeping changes. Outside of QRR, I think her core pattern is really fun. If you've ever played Diana in 3s you'll know how fun it is to skirmish with her when you can't nuke anyone out. There's something really great about a passive proc into your second rotation of spells as they come off cooldown. It's really satisfying.


Hell Riot. I love Diana. Lets talk about her please. Vesh
01-29-2014 02:20 PM
General Discussion

Vesh

Game Designer

01-29-2014
5 of 19 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by atresj View Post
This can be dealt with differently, though. While I do realize my idea do not hit the nail on its head it may help balancing Diana a bit.

We all agree that she's not an assassin (as you too pointed out in your post), she's something like a tanky-bursting frontliner. Because of that her shield should scale with something different than her damaging abilites for the reasons mentioned earlier.

Why not just make her shield scale with bonus health and make her passive scale damage with bonus health too? This way we'll encourage Diana's to actually build more tanky while still making her a threat to the enemy team.

The shield scaling with health instead of AP has been suggested a couple of times. I agree with the goal, but it's hard to say if a specific solution will actually work when it's on paper.

edit: removed analogy that wasn't very strong.